1) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder focus on selling "affordable" dogs?
Here's where we answer the burning question, "How much does a Maremma Sheepdog cost?" The answer is it depends on what the buyer and the breeder value. There are breeders out there, even Code of Ethics breeders, who emphasize providing "affordable" dogs to people. They claim that farmers can't afford expensive dogs, and maybe in some cases, that's true, but in reality, what someone can or can't "afford" has more to do with what they value than how much they make. 

We all have things we spend money on that others think are frivolous. And in an age when a "Doodle" or your average lap dog is $3000-5000, I don't believe that high quality, well-socialized registered Maremma puppies out of proven working, health-tested parents that will grow up to be responsible for the very lives of the farmer's other animals aren't worth at least as much as these fancy pet dogs. 

I have no problem with doodles or lap dogs. I am highlighting the disparity in our thinking when such dogs are seen as more valuable than well-bred working dogs that will fulfill a crucial role. As breeders, let's aim higher. We are ethically responsible for raising the bar for the breed we claim to love. 

The push for "affordable" registered Maremmas primarily comes from lazy, irresponsible, and apathetic breeders. Breeding and properly starting quality working Maremma puppies takes a lot of money and a lot of hard work. The cost of puppy food alone, as well as food for the parents, is out of this world. Then there's health testing for the parents before you even breed them. There are vet bills, vaccines, external and internal parasite prevention, microchips, grooming expenses, and other supplies. It adds up so fast!

And caring for and raising puppies, while very rewarding, is a lot of work. Puppies and parents need to be fed and groomed. Pups must be dewormed, vaccinated, weighed, cleaned, and sometimes bottle-fed if the litter is large. The whelping box must be changed daily, which means lots of laundry. And once mom stops cleaning up the puppy poop, guess whose job it is?! Puppies must be socialized with livestock while keeping safe from hooves, beaks, extreme temperatures, and bad weather. They also need to be socialized with humans and encounter as many novel experiences as possible so that they mature into safe, stable, resilient dogs instead of feral creatures.

So how does a breeder produce "affordable" pups while doing all of the above? They don't. Instead, they cut corners and make compromises. Health testing? Too expensive! We'll skip that, and if the puppy ends up with Hip Dysplasia, we'll blame the owner. We weren't planning to give a health guarantee, anyway. 

Quality dog food? No, we'll buy one of those cheap, inferior brands instead. And make sure not to "overfeed" the pups or mom. A cozy whelping box with interchangeable pads that we'll need to change and wash daily? More work. How about a bare kiddie pool in a cold garage? No blanket is necessary. Just hose it out as needed. Never mind that the slick plastic is not only cold but could do lasting damage to the puppies' joints. Efficiency is what matters. 

Or whelp the puppies in the barn, no matter the time of year. Throw a little hay in a corner of the sheep or goat pen. Half the pups die of exposure or heat stroke or are stepped on by livestock, but that's an "acceptable" loss for breeders who prioritize "affordable" over other things. 

Toys, treats, and enrichment activities? More expensive and requires more work. We'll skip all that in the name of "not making pets out of the pups ."Yep, that sounds like a good excuse for neglect. 

Are we socializing puppies with livestock? That's too much work for the profit-driven, irresponsible breeder. It would be easier to keep them locked in the garage, patio, small kennel, or a stall in the barn. But minimal effort and work are what matters. We're just warehousing them until they are weaned and ready to go home. And ASAP!

And that is how you raise "affordable" pups! Granted, not every breeder of "affordable" puppies cuts every corner mentioned. But they all cut some of them and others not listed. They all make sacrifices to produce pups with minimal effort and expense. And the puppies, their future owners, and the livestock they are supposed to protect all too often pay the price. And the breed as a whole pays the price since these breeders perpetuate practices that aren't in the breed's best interest.

If "affordable pups" matters most to you, you shouldn't have too much trouble finding that. But if high-quality, well-bred, correctly socialized, and healthy pups are what you're looking for, then read on to learn to read between the lines and pick the right breeder. 

2) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder have a Breeding Program, or do they breed dogs? And if they do have a Breeding Program, is their program in line with your needs and values?
There is a very distinct and essential difference between "breeding dogs" and having a breeding program. Someone who "breeds dogs" is usually in it strictly for the money and is not committed to doing everything they can to best serve their dogs, clients, or breed. A "Breeding Program" is carefully thought out with specific goals and carried out intentionally to achieve those goals. These goals may or may not align with what you are looking for but understanding the difference and learning about the breeder's "program" as a whole, instead of just about their available puppies, will help you decide if they are the breeder for you. Not every breeder is suitable for every potential puppy owner. Understanding the breeder's goals and values and how they align with yours is the most critical step in choosing a breeder.

3) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder have any expertise, training, and experience in their field? 
How long has the breeder been breeding Maremmas? Have they bred any other breeds? Has the breeder taken any professional courses like dog training, behavior, or puppy socialization courses? Have they worked in dog-related professions, such as dog grooming or veterinary medicine? Do they run a working farm or ranch raising one or more livestock species or only have a few pet animals? Or do they even have any livestock at all? (A breeder with no livestock should not be breeding working LGDs. Puppies have critical socialization windows in the first weeks and must be exposed to livestock before this window closes.) Everyone has to start somewhere, but the more experience a breeder has as a dog breeder, livestock producer, or in another capacity working with animals in general and dogs in particular (especially Livestock Guardian Dogs), the better. After all, a breeder needs to be able to support their puppy owners as they raise and train their pups. A breeder can only help people with enough education and experience to draw from.

4) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder have a website, and if so, is it relevant and up to date? 
Ok, this might seem like a strange question but hear me out. Very few reputable businesses these days operate without a website. A website is the most crucial marketing tool for any business owner and the people the business serves. According to Forbes.com, "every business needs a website". A well-built and up-to-date website builds credibility, showcases a company's brand (who they are and what they stand for), streamlines customer service, and so much more. A breeder who can't be bothered to build a website is not very committed to their dogs or clients. They are likely "just breeding dogs," not running a well-thought-out and intentional breeding program. 

And if they have a website but you still need help finding information on available puppies, photos, pedigrees, and health test results of the parents, you are unlikely to receive good customer service before or after the sale. It may be just me, but having a relevant and up-to-date website separates professionals from amateurs in any field. 

5) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder have a good social media following?
A breeder's website is always first and foremost in building credibility but being active on social media also shows their commitment to educating and supporting their clients and anyone interested in the breed. Businesses engage their customers and like-minded individuals on many social media platforms. Breeders are busy doing the work it takes to run their businesses, raise quality dogs, and meet the needs of their clients, so expecting them to be active on every social media platform is unreasonable. But if they have business accounts on one or two platforms, such as Facebook and Instagram, and they are reasonably active there, as well as some breed or species-relevant groups, then checking out their posts can give you a feel for who they are, what they stand for and how much credibility they have with their audience. Their audience should include clients who have bought puppies from them. If a breeder gets little to no client engagement, that's a red flag.

6) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder use their website and social media platforms to educate, encourage and inspire others interested in the breed?
Time is always at a premium when breeding dogs and running a farm. Still, most passionate and dedicated breeders will find time to reach out to others. A reputable Maremma Sheepdog breeder cares about more than just selling puppies. They are advocates for the breed and the people who love these dogs as much as they do. They write blog posts and website pages to help others with their dogs, no matter where they acquired them. They share links to products they find helpful on their website. They post fun and educational content on their own and from other sources on their social media accounts. They always think about how something they could share might bless Maremmas and their owners and make time to do so whenever possible.  

7) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder use their dogs to actively guard livestock?
This one is crucial. You would be surprised how many people decide to breed Livestock Guardian Dogs but don't use their dogs as Livestock Guardians. This practice has been popular with breeds like Great Pyrenees for years, where they are often bred exclusively for the show or pet market. One of the reasons Maremmas are such great Livestock Guardian Dogs is that they have yet to be overbred for the pet/show market. Therefore they retain more of their working instinct. However, some disreputable breeders are attracted to the "rarity" of the Maremma Sheepdog breed and breed solely for profit and "bragging rights ."Usually, they have a "farm." but it's more of a fancy estate in a "horsey subdivision" than an actual working farm or homestead. At most, they may own a few chickens, a horse, a mini cow, or some pet sheep.

Photos of their dogs and puppies with livestock will be very sparse if there are any at all. This lack of photos isn't because they are too busy to take pictures. It's because their dogs and puppies don't live with the livestock but are pets who spend most of their time lounging around the pool or sleeping on the patio. Their dogs may be beautiful, well-bred, and health tested, but they aren't Livestock Guardians. They may deter predators by their mere presence. Still, a Livestock Guardian Dog that doesn't live WITH livestock is an Estate Guardian, not an LGD. 

And if the dogs don't live with the stock, you should ask yourself and the breeder two crucial questions. Why don't the dogs live with the livestock? (Probably because they aren't trustworthy with stock.) And how can dogs who don't live with livestock train their puppies to be Livestock Guardian Dogs? 

And bonus question - how can a breeder who doesn't know how to train their adult dogs to live safely with livestock possibly train their puppies to do so?

I once had a breeder tell me that most of her puppies go to fancy estates to "keep coyotes from pooping on the lawns" and to "guard trees" in wealthy people's orchards. Based on what I observed, that is how she uses her dogs. That might be ok if these breeders limited themselves to selling puppies only to people who need to use their dogs how they do. But they don't. They also sell pups to unsuspecting real farmers who need a dog who will be safe and reliable with delicate stock like goats and chickens. And when that proud new puppy owner brings home one of these "estate guardian" puppies, they may find that turning that puppy into a safe, reliable Livestock Guardian Dog is challenging, if not downright impossible. 

If you need a beautiful dog to guard your swimming pool, buy from one of these "estate guardian" breeders. But if you need your dog to protect your chickens and goats instead of eating them, I advise you to keep looking. Otherwise, you may eventually need to replace your dog and some of your livestock.

8) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder have proven working genetics in their program and a way to track their dogs? Is this information readily accessible to potential buyers?
This is where a website is invaluable in helping potential buyers do their research. Ideally, you will see a page for each breeding dog on the breeder's website, with registered names listed and photos, pedigrees, and health testing information. Then you should see litter pages with the parents listed, links to their pages, and pictures and information on the puppies. 

I'd want as much information about the breeder's program as possible. How they socialize and care for their puppies, what kind of livestock their dogs guard, their sales and visitor policies, their training style, information on shipping, testimonials from clients, and more. 

And most important of all - you should see lots and lots of photos and videos of the parent dogs and the puppies living with livestock. A breeder with little to no photos of their dogs and puppies with stock is a huge red flag. Everyone has a camera in their pocket these days. It's built into their phone. There's no excuse for any breeder not to have photographic evidence that their dogs and puppies live with livestock unless they don't.

You may be new to all this, and it may be overwhelming, but having the information readily available on a website is much better than getting a disorganized breeder to text or email all of this information to you. A conscientious breeder will happily answer your questions and share whatever information you need to decide whether their breeding program is for you. 

If they don't have a website, they should be prompt in providing the information and documents you need. If the breeder is reluctant to answer questions or if getting documents like pedigrees and health test results is difficult, then they are probably not trustworthy.

9) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder provide any Health Testing for their breeding dogs?
This one is a major red flag if the answer is no. Genetic defects can be devastating in any dog, especially in working Livestock Guardian Dogs. Without a doubt, the most common and most problematic is Hip Dysplasia. Maremmas are considered a giant breed, and giant breeds are more at risk for hip dysplasia because of their size and rapid growth rate. Livestock Guardian Dogs are hardworking dogs who often patrol rough terrain and must be ready to act immediately. A dog suffering from arthritis caused by Hip Dysplasia can't effectively do their jobs. This condition causes debilitating pain for the dog and puts the livestock at risk. 

Many factors contribute to Hip Dysplasia, including diet and exercise while the puppy grows. Still, the first and most crucial step in minimizing risk is screening breeding dogs through either PennHip or OFA scans and only breeding dogs with scores that are above average for the breed. If you know more about the other dogs in the pedigree or related dogs and they score well overall, that's even better. Knowledge is power, truly.

What's not ok is a breeder not testing their breeding dogs and simply telling you their dogs "have good hips ."You can only know for sure with the proper diagnostic tests, and if a breeder tells you this, they are lying. Most likely, they have bad hips in their line and don't want to admit it, or they don't want to spend the money and care more about profits than breeding healthy dogs. 

You may think you can save money by buying these cheaper dogs, but it could be costly in the long run. The costs of vet bills, pain medications, and expensive surgeries will far outweigh any savings you may have made on buying an "affordable puppy ."Your dog could become so debilitated that it can't work, necessitating the purchase of a replacement dog or putting your livestock at risk. And sadly, some dogs are so crippled by this horrible condition that they must be put down, which is a heartbreaking and devastating experience. 

Do you want to be the one to watch your puppy suffer in pain from crippling arthritis before she's even grown? Do you want to have to put that poor, sweet dog down to spare her a lifetime of agony? It happens more than you think because greedy, unethical breeders value profits over what's best for the dogs, their potential owners, and the breed as a whole. So do yourself a favor and don't buy potential heartache. And do the right thing for the breed and everyone else who loves and depends on these dogs by not enabling these disreputable breeders.

Other health tests are helpful in making breeding decisions, such as testing for elbow dysplasia and DNA screenings. A breeder doing these tests is a bonus, but beware of a sneaky trend. Many breeders do only DNA testing but no screening for Hip Dysplasia whatsoever. The reason for this is pure deception. A DNA test is under $200 and it takes a minute to swab the dog's cheek. A screening for Hip Dysplasia, through OFA or PennHip, costs on average $400-1000 and requires a trip to the vet (sometimes a specialist). 

Disreputable breeders will do the DNA test and advertise their dogs as "health tested" when they have not tested for the most critical condition a Livestock Guardian Dog is at risk for and the one most likely to affect its ability to do its job. I would not trust such a shady breeder who would use this premeditated and shameful deception.

10) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder offer a 2-year health guarantee?
Hand in hand with health testing, a sign of a reputable breeder is a Health Guarantee, preferably covering the first two years of the puppy's life. Shockingly the MSCA Code of Ethics doesn't require breeders to provide a Health Guarantee of any kind. It only requires a contract, and there are no guidelines on what should be included. 

I didn't realize this when I first purchased my breeding dogs, nor did I understand the importance of a health guarantee. I bought dogs from 5 different Code of Ethics breeders, and only two provided health guarantees. I was fortunate that none of my dogs had any health issues. 

Still, I know of people who bought dogs from such breeders and were not so lucky when their dogs were diagnosed with severe Hip Dysplasia at an early age, even under a year old. I've heard similar stories with other breeds. When the owners returned to these breeders seeking help, the breeders accused the owners of causing the problem (despite veterinary evidence) and refused to give any compensation. The buyers had no recourse. They were left with a debilitated dog in constant pain that couldn't do their jobs and ongoing vet bills. And no protection for their stock. 

Of course, by the time the problem was discovered, they loved their dogs too much to give them up, so they had to purchase another dog to guard their livestock while also paying expensive vet bills to try to help the dog, who is now basically a companion dog. So much for saving money on "affordable" puppies. The price of an "affordable" dog is very high, indeed.

Now that I know better, I would only buy a puppy with a 2-year health guarantee again and with a complete understanding of the warranty terms. You might save some money by purchasing an "affordable" puppy, but it could cost you more money and much heartache in the long run. 

Breeding Livestock Guardian dogs is expensive. Dog food alone is a considerable expense. Breeders who sell puppies cheaply must cut corners to make ends meet. Even some Code of Ethics breeders prioritize "affordable" dogs over essential things like health guarantees. It's the buyer who loses every time. And the puppies.

To learn more about the importance of both health testing and a solid health guarantee read the heartbreaking story of Fuzz and Kyrie, two Maremma Sheepdog littermates who were diagnosed with crippling hip dysplasia at just seven months old. 

Pups? Be Careful - the story of Fuzz and Kyrie

11) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder offer a contract?
A contract protects both the buyer and the breeder, and most of all, the puppy. All reputable breeders should provide a written contract with clearly laid out terms. The breeder and the buyer should sign the contract before the puppy goes to its new home. 

Ideally, the breeder has a sample of their contract posted on their website so that the buyer can read it before reserving their puppy. Then the contract is updated with all the puppy and buyer's info before signing. The Code of Ethics has no contract standard, and non-COE breeders aren't even required to use a contract. 

Based on the dogs I bought from other breeders, I have seen everything from over-the-top ridiculous contracts with threats and "thou shall not"s to equally ridiculously vague and incoherent ones. I try hard to make my contract fair and straightforward, protecting the buyer, myself as a breeder, and the puppy. I regularly evaluate my contract and rewrite it if I need to. 

12) Does the Maremma Sheepdog breeder socialize their puppies with livestock from a very early age?
I have entire blog posts written about this topic, which I feel very strongly about. I won't go in-depth about the subject, other than to say if the breeder doesn't have their puppies near livestock by at least three weeks (preferably sooner) and living full time with at least a few gentle goats or sheep and maybe some chickens by a minimum of 5 weeks old then that puppy will never live up to their full potential as Livestock Guardian Dogs. 

Puppies have critical socialization periods in the first weeks. They must encounter what you want them to be comfortable with to get the most benefit from these periods. And for Livestock Guardian Dogs, socialization with livestock during this time is crucial. If puppies are deprived of livestock past about eight weeks of age, they will be adversely affected for life. For more information on this topic, please read the following pages and posts:

• The Prancing Pony Farm Difference - How We Raise and Train Our Maremma Sheepdog Puppies
• How to Bond Your New LGD Puppy to Your Livestock and the Importance of Early Socialization with Livestock in LGD Puppies
• Will my LGD's Behavior with Livestock Improve? What are Critical Learning Periods in Puppies, Why Do They Matter, and What Should you do if You've Missed Them?
• Debunking the "Shepherd Way" Myth of Training Livestock Guardian Dogs - Science Versus Social Media Gurus
• How to Raise and Train Outstanding Livestock Guardian Dogs - How We Integrate Our Maremma Puppies into Our Dairy Goat Herd 
• Our "Puppy Parlor," Our Maremma Sheepdog Whelping and Training Facility
• The Perfect Place to Rear and Train Livestock Guardian Dogs - Our Puppy Parlor Gets Some Upgrades, Plus a Little Backstory on Why and How We Built It.

13) What is the breeder's socialization and training program for the puppies beyond livestock training?
Socialization with livestock is only part of what is needed to turn puppies into successful, well-rounded LGDs. Puppies also need positive interactions with humans, including children, during their early weeks and exposure to various sights, sounds, and experiences. Puppies deprived of these experiences can become fearful or even aggressive dogs that are difficult to manage and dangerous to handle.

Likewise, puppies should be trained with only positive and humane training methods. In their position statement on humane dog training, The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior (AVSAB) states, "Evidence supports the use of reward based methods for all canine training. AVSAB promotes interactions with animals based on compassion, respect, and scientific evidence. Based on these factors, reward-based learning offers the most advantages and least harm to the learner’s welfare. Research supports the efficacy of reward-based training to address unwanted and challenging behaviors. There is no evidence that aversive training is necessary for dog training or behavior modification."

Experts agree and science has proven that dogs learn best through positive reinforcement. Aversive training methods reduce learning and can adversely affect the dog's trust in humans. Breeders who rely on force, punishment, and control to manage their puppies or who advocate that their puppy owners do so could be causing irreparable harm to the dogs.

14) Does the breeder provide lifetime support for the puppy and their owner?
The breeder should always be the first source of advice and encouragement for any puppy owner, particularly concerning training and management. Sadly many breeders give little to no support to their customers once the puppy leaves their possession. This forces puppy owners to seek other sources for advice. There are few good books or other reliable sources of information on managing and training LGDs, so puppy owners often turn to social media for help. Most of these groups are full of misinformation and very harmful recommendations given by people without real training or experience. These groups can cause more harm than good for the puppy and the owner and waste time. It would be better to buy a puppy from a breeder who is willing and able to help their clients than to end up having to figure it out as you go.

15) Does the breeder offer a lifetime return policy on their puppies?
Life doesn't always go as planned. Farms are sold, divorce and deaths happen, and circumstances change. Sadly not everyone can keep their dogs forever, even if they want to. It's stressful enough to deal with a challenging situation without worrying about what will happen to the dog.

An unethical breeder refuses to help their puppies or owners. They would prefer those dogs end up in a rescue situation than step in and help. Profits and convenience drive them. Taking back dogs is neither profitable nor convenient.

Ethical breeders believe they are responsible for the dogs they bring into this world for life. They support their puppies and owners, even if some dogs need to return to them. If a breeder isn't willing to provide that commitment, they should not be breeding dogs. ​

​Here at Prancing Pony Farm we are Maremma Sheepdog Club of America Code of Ethics breeders. We breed exceptional quality Maremma Sheepdogs that are registered with the MSCA. We put a lot of work into our breeding program and provide our puppy buyers with a contract, which protects both the buyer and us as breeders. This contract is required by the Code of Ethics and is a legally binding document. No puppy leaves our farm without the buyer signing a puppy contract. Every buyer is afforded the opportunity to read the contract before they sign it, and they are given a copy before they take home their puppy.

If you have seen Maremma Sheepdog puppies advertised anywhere on the internet besides our website or social media accounts you should know that as of March 14th, 2023, there is no one but us who currently has or ever has had breeding rights on any Maremmas we've bred. Every single puppy we have ever sold to date has gone on Limited Registration, which means no litters can be registered and no litters should be produced, even unregistered litters.

We have a very carefully laid out Breeding Candidate program, designed to protect the breed as a whole and the individual dogs we have bred. This requires health testing (with passing hip scores and more) from the parents and several requirements that both the dogs and the owners must meet. Then and only then will we sign the “Revoke Limited Registration Status” form from the MSCA. To see our requirements to breed one of our puppies please visit the page below:

We do have a few clients who are in the process of completing their requirements and will receive the Full Registration (and breeding rights) on their dogs soon, but no litters already whelped and being advertised by anyone but us (as of 3/14/23) are legal litters. Anyone who advertises “Prancing Pony Farm ________” as a parent of their puppies, or admits that any of those dogs came from us, is in direct violation of the contract they signed. (And of course they are in violation even if they don't admit it.) Those puppies are ineligible for registration and will never be allowed to be registered.

In fact, we do know of certain individuals who have violated the puppy contracts they signed when they bought their dogs and have illegally bred those dogs. In some cases the dogs were not even old enough to be bred, which puts great risk on the dogs and the puppies. Some have illegally bred their dogs more than once. This is no one time, accidental breeding, but a premeditated plan to steal that which doesn't rightfully belong to them. None of the dogs have had their health testing done, so it's possible they could be producing puppies with health problems such as hip dysplasia. That's exactly what the contract and requirements are meant to protect against and exactly why we do not give Full Registration status to untested dogs.

Some of these individuals are so bold that they are advertising their puppies with our name attached to them, leading potential buyers to believe they had our permission to breed their dogs. They did not. This activity is illegal, unethical and a blatant violation of the contract they signed. No one may breed our dogs or advertise using our farm name unless they have received breeding rights.

The only way you will know that the person who is advertising pups from our lines is doing so legally is to ask to see the registration certificates of the parents. If they don't have a registration certificate they do not have permission to breed the dog. If they have a registration certificate but it says "Limited Registration" then that means they have illegally bred the dog, in violation of the contract they signed and the puppies may not be registered. If they have a registration certificate that says "Full Registration", then and only then do they have breeding rights on the dog we bred and then and only then are their puppies eligible for registration with the Maremma Sheepdog Club of America.

So if you see anyone other than us advertising Prancing Pony Farm puppies on Social media, on their own website, on the official MSCA website or Facebook page or anywhere else, and they can't produce proof of Full Registration status on their dogs (via an Official MSCA registration certificate showing Unlimited registration), then please understand that these puppies were illegally produced, and these people are in violation of their legally binding contract. Don't take their word for it. Ask for proof!

For that matter I suggest you ask for proof of registration status of the parent dogs no matter who the breeder is. Responsible, ethical breeders work very hard to protect the integrity of their breeding programs and the breed. People who illegally breed dogs harm ethical breeders and the breed. I would hope that you would not support anyone who is engaging in this unethical behavior.

But maybe you are considering buying a puppy from such a breeder anyway. Maybe you think it's "not your problem" and perhaps that you can get a puppy cheaper by buying a "black market" puppy. But you should ask yourself one very important question. If this unethical breeder is willing to violate the legally binding contract they signed and to illegally produce puppies, can you really trust them to act in an ethical manner with you, as a buyer? Probably not. Leopards don't change their spots.

The other day I posted a cute photo of one of my 8 week old Maremma puppies (these puppies but not this photo) with my goats. It was just a chance photo I caught and it was cute, so I did a quick IG/FB post, captioning it "Where an 8 Week Old LGD Puppy Belongs". I took it a step further and shared it on a few LGD groups. As I was doing so I was already deciding that this needed to be a blog post because the topic was too in-depth for just a social media post. So I started working on the blog post but went ahead and put the "readers' digest condensed version" on social media. Here is the post:

As expected I got immediate push-back on Facebook. Most people agreed with me but a couple didn't. Here are some of the comments I received. Instead of getting into a Facebook war I decided to address the concerns here:

Comment: "The way you phrased it, every LGD puppy belongs in with the livestock, even if they just got picked up by their next owner at eight weeks."

Reply: I hear over and over that it's "unsafe" for an 8 week old puppy to be alone in a barn. And of course I agree 100% with this. Where an 8 week old puppy belongs is in the breeder's barn or pastures with its parents, litter-mates and/or other mentor dogs, and with livestock, not with an inexperienced new owner, especially if this is a single puppy, being placed without either a partner or a mentor dog. The answer to this issue is simple. Don't buy puppies from breeders who send their pups home at 8 weeks old. Don't enable this lazy and irresponsible style of dog breeding and puppy rearing.

​I plan to write an entire post about this topic but the answer is that in most cases 8 weeks is too young for LGD puppies to go to new homes. Most LGD puppies are bought by first time owners who have no clue how to either properly socialize a puppy to livestock or how to keep the puppy safe and supported while doing so. Having the puppy stay in training with the breeder a few more weeks can make a huge difference both in the success of the puppy as a LGD and in its safety when it is brought home.

These 8 week old puppies are still babies. Their place is here, on my farm, with their litter mates and learning from their parents and other mentor dogs as well as my experienced puppy trainer  livestock for at least a month or two more.

As the pups grow we utilize other dogs besides their dams as puppy mentors. We are very careful to only choose dogs that are patient and gentle with the puppies and do not encourage or allow our dogs to "correct" the puppies. Puppies who are treated harshly by adult dogs can become aggressive or fearful and neither makes a safe and trustworthy LGD.  

The Real "Backyard Breeders"

Of course if the breeder isn't properly socializing the puppies to livestock in the first place then you're better off bringing home that puppy ASAP, if you are determined to buy from that kind of breeder. (I don't recommend it.) Cindy Benson wrote an excellent blog post about that titled "The Age of Placement for Pups Depends on Who is Doing the Training". That's a must read post!

There's a lot of criticism for "Backyard Breeders" out there. Usually this refers to breeders who are raising unhealthy, uncared for puppies from poor quality breeding stock, but often times the term is used as a weapon by breeders to judge other breeders. In my opinion the real "backyard breeders" are the people raising Livestock Guardian Dog puppies in their backyard (or in their home) instead of with livestock.  If the breeder is raising their puppies in their home, backyard or on the patio then it's best to get that puppy home and with your stock ASAP.

​But the REAL answer is not to buy from these "Backyard Breeders" in the first place, because even by 8 weeks old you have lost at least 3-4 weeks of vital socialization time with livestock and to be perfectly honest your puppy will never be the same as a puppy who was "raised in a barn". Puppies have critical developmental periods and where your pup spends even the first 8 weeks makes a huge difference in how they turn out. Breeders who raised their LGD puppies like companion dogs either don't understand puppy development or don't care about the impact it has on the future of the dog and the stock it's intended to guard. Ignorance or apathy, it doesn't much matter. Do yourself a favor and just say no to Backyard LGD Breeders.

Comment: "...if they are going to new homes, once they get there they need to spend time in the house to bond with their shepherd, learn how to behave in a house, how to ride in a car, walk on leash, and a whole lot of other things that will make them much better rounded LGD in the long run. 

Reply: I totally agree that LGD puppies need to be exposed to experiences and skills that will make them well-rounded dogs (leash walking, exposure to lots of sights, sounds and people), and these experiences should be started by the breeder during their critical learning period, in the first 12-16 weeks. The more things the puppy is exposed to during this time the more well-rounded and resilient they will be. Again, waiting until the puppy goes to their new home is not going to be as effective as having the breeder do it, because by that point the Critical Socialization Period is ending.

Just simply housing the puppies in a stall in the barn (or on a patio or in a house or yard) with no mental stimulation is not good enough. The puppy will be mentally and emotionally stunted and may suffer from all kinds of problems as adults, including aggression and fear, both of which are unsuitable in a LGD. If you instead buy a puppy from a breeder who uses a comprehensive puppy socialization plan like Puppy Culture, in addition to an intensive livestock socialization plan, your puppy will be well-prepared for its future as a LGD and as a well-rounded, stable dog and part of your family. 

Debunking "The Shepherd Way" Myth

Spend any time on LGD groups on Facebook and you'll likely encounter the "Shepherd Way of LGD Training" method. This ridiculous theory is heavily promoted on social media by self-described "experts" with no actual training or experience with LGD's. (What professional dog training or behavior courses have they taken? What scientific documents or books have they read? What is their experience with dogs in general and LGD's in particular? Are they a breeder or trainer of LGD's? If they are a breeder how long have they bred LGD's and how many puppies have they successfully placed in working homes?)

These "experts" make the claim that shepherds spent hours a day intensively interacting with and training their LGD's and overseeing their interactions with the flocks. So Livestock Guardian Dogs are independent natured because they historically spent so much time alone with the stock but they also spent every waking minute with the "shepherd"?! That is what we call and oxymoron. 

Maybe these people are confusing herding dogs with LGD's but if there's evidence for this "Shepherd Way Theory" I haven't found it. And that idea is refuted in this National Geographic video on Maremmas, where the "shepherd" clearly states that the dogs, for the most part, take the sheep out all day long, by themselves, and then watch them all night, by themselves. The shepherds mainly see them in the morning before the animals go out to pasture and when the dogs bring the sheep back in for the night. No snuggling on the couch in front of the TV for these dogs. The point of LGD's is that they can and do work largely independently. (This video, by the way, was made by the uncle of the breeder of Pegaso, our imported Italian dog.)

Even if ancient Shepherds did spend hours a day interacting with and supervising their dogs those shepherds and dogs lived out on the open range with the sheep. They didn't live in warm, cozy houses with cable TV and internet. You can't take an old world, ancient way of managing LGD's and just plunk it down in our modern world and expect the results to be the same. Sitting on the couch watching TV with your LGD puppy for hours a day and then taking them out to do the farm chores for 30 minutes to and hour, or even a couple of hours, is not going to be enough to train that puppy how to be a Livestock Guardian Dog. You are training it to be a companion dog. Which is fine if you want a companion dog, but not if you need a LGD.

Yes there are adaptations and compromises that have to be made in order to keep a puppy safe while also ensuring the proper early socialization with stock, but if someone wants to be the "shepherd" to their LGD puppy the answer is NOT turning the puppy into a couch potato with token "livestock exposure" for an hour or so out of a 24 hour day. The answer is for a safe place to be made for the puppy in the barn or pasture so the puppy can be properly immersed with the livestock and for the "shepherd" to get outside and spend more time with the puppy, in their natural LGD setting. And for the puppy to have a working LGD partner or mentor, (or both) too.

The Best Place to Get Advice is From Real Experts

If you want to hear from an actual expert on Livestock Guardian Dogs you should read some of the books on the subject by Raymond Coppinger, professor emeritus of biology at Hampshire College, and his associates. ​In 1976, Ray and his wife Lorna founded the Livestock Guarding Dog Project at Hampshire College, where he conducted a long-term study of LGD's involving Maremma Sheepdogs as well as other breeds. For ten years the Coppingers compiled data from over 1,400 dogs in research that is still the single largest, long term study of LGDs in the world. They actually started a Maremma Sheepdog registry that predates the MSCA and many Maremmas in the United States are descended from dogs that were imported for the project.

Here's a quote from the Hampshire College website on Coppingers' work: "This long-term investigation into the behavior of a new kind of dog for farmers and ranchers in the United States has resulted in greater understanding of early developmental behavior of dogs, and how early experience (or lack of it) can affect adult behavior."

I don't know about you but I would rather get my LGD advice from real scientists and experts on the subject than from people on social media with no actual credentials, training, education or experience in the field.

Nature Versus Nurture

Comment: "Dogs with good breeding will learn from you modeling the desired behavior, because that’s how they’ve been raised for centuries"

Reply: Another non-science comment. First of all, dogs don't mimic the behavior of humans, or of other species. To a degree they mimic other dogs but even that is minimal. If it weren't then  all I would need to do would be to pair one of my excellent adult LGD's with my puppies and juvenile dogs and the training would be done for me. I wish!

And no matter how much I pet my goats and tell the dogs "nice goat" it doesn't stop the chasing. Dogs don't do what they do to please us or because they love us. They do what their instincts, developmental stages and environments dictate. In order to stop the chasing the environment needs to be matched to their developmental stage (appropriate stock and conditions) and conducive to getting the behavior I want. And they need to be rewarded for the behavior that's desired to encourage more of it.

As far as the assertion that dogs with good breeding will naturally figure things out by curling up on the couch and watching TV, that is pure hogwash, not at all "how they've been raised for centuries" and not scientific at all. Again, in the words of an actual expert:

And I for one prefer science over urban legends. What about you?

To learn more about Raymond Coppinger, his writings and his work with LGD's and this important topic, please read the blog post below by Cindy Benson. (Another actual expert on LGD's in general and Maremmas in particular.)

The Essential Window of Bonding for Livestock Guardian Dog Pups, by Cindy Benson

**Disclosure - I am one of the Admins on a Maremma Sheepdog training and discussions Facebook group called Maremma Sheepdog Open Forum so maybe it seems a bit ironic that I am warning people to not get their training advice on Facebook. However our group is science based and run by people with real training and experience with the breed. The admins all have businesses as Maremma breeders and/or trainers and have invested in professional training and education on the breed and on dog training and behavior. We have our own websites and blogs where we do most of our writing about the breed, with social media used as a way to educate and encourage those who love the breed, but not as our main or only platform. We do not allow the promoting of unscientific claims or urban legends on our group or anything that harms or endangers dogs. Our mission is to make the world a better and safer place for Maremmas, their owners and the livestock they guard through true education and encouragement. Our group is the only place on Facebook I recommend for training advice.

**I posted this on Facebook and as usual, got some pushback from people. There were a few comments as well as a long private conversation I had with someone today about the post so I wanted to clarify something that came up. When I refer to “The Shepherd Way” it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with how real shepherds in Italy managed their dogs or still do. What I am referring to is Americans who cherry pick aspects of what I have been told Italian shepherds did/do without doing the whole thing.

For instance, I was told that Italian shepherds basically have house/barns, where the dogs can come and go freely between the part where the animals live and wher the humans live. I do not know if that's true but if it is that is nothing like what I see advocated on social media because most Americans don't have that kind of set-up. Do YOU have a barn attached to your house?

What’s more I don't think most Americans live anything like the ancient or even modern Italian shepherds did/do. Again, I don't know, but I would guess shepherds did and do spend hours a day outdoors with their dogs and stock. Most Americans spend the majority of their hours indoors, in front of some kind of screen, with very small amounts of time outdoors, even if they have a farm or homestead. And most people with farms have an off farm job. So where is this house puppy while the “shepherd” is at work?

My point is not that the real “shepherd way”, whatever that really is, doesn't work. I have great respect for these real shepherds. I just don't believe that's what is being promoted by most people who advocate this on social media. From my conversations and observations on these groups I only see people telling other people to “bring the puppy inside and be the shepherd” without clarifying or teaching them how to really do that. And that is what I have a problem with. I love real shepherds. Fake ones not so much.

And I also do not have a problem if people want to allow their LGD’s in the house. I still believe they should spend the majority of their time outside with the stock, but I doubt a visit to the house now and then will ruin a well started dog. (An improperly started one is another matter entirely.) I have clients who allow their pups in the house and I support their right to manage their pups as they see fit. My dogs might visit my house if I had a different set up. But my house is 300’ from my barn, with an unfenced area between them. I couldn’t have my dogs come in my house without putting them on a leash and walking them over, and if I did the animals would be unprotected. But if you want to bring your Maremma in your house more power to you!

Spend any time patrolling the internet and you will find people complaining about the "problems" they have with their LGD's. Some are committed to making things work and are just reaching out for advice and help. Others not so much. There are people who are dumping their dogs in rescue because it doesn't live up to their expectations. They see LGD's as cheap, expendable "products" and are happy to throw their dog away and start over if things don't go according to plan.

Others are calling their dogs "a failure", "bad dog" and "a disappointment". They seem to revel in criticizing their dogs to get attention, which is disgusting and sad. What makes this even sadder is that these are often PUPPIES that are being called failures. Everyone knows that LGD's can take 2 years or sometimes more to reach maturity and to be totally safe with stock. So why is it ok to call a 9 month old puppy a "failure" for being a puppy?

The first step in setting the puppies up for success lies with the breeder. Puppies have critical learning periods in the first weeks and months. If breeders don't take advantage of these periods the dog will never live up to its full potential. It might be an "ok" LGD, but not likely a "great" one. Puppies should have intensive socialization with stock from as early as possible. At our farm every dog and puppy we own lives with other dogs and livestock 24/7. Dogs are social creatures and they need to have their needs for socialization met in order to thrive.

Puppies should also be trained with positive socialization methods and only allowed to be around other dogs and stock that are kind to the puppies. Using harsh training methods or harsh treatment by other dogs and stock on puppies teaches puppies to be either fearful or to bully other animals, or both. Neither is what you want to nurture in a LGD.

But no matter how careful and conscientious the breeder is in their socialization of their puppies the job doesn't end there. The new puppy owner has the responsibility to continue this nurturing training and treatment of the puppy once it gets home. Other than the first few days the puppy should be with livestock full time asap. Of course with poultry, accommodations will have to be made to keep the birds safe, but the puppy should have another dog as a companion and some type of mammal to guard if at all possible. The puppy should not ever be locked up by itself for extended periods of time. This is counterproductive to what you're trying to accomplish with your puppy. You will only frustrate the puppy, which will lead to "bad" behavior.

If you are experiencing problems with your puppy the first place to turn is your breeder. A reputable breeder will provide lifetime support to their customers. They can tell you how your puppy was trained before it left their farm and can give advice on how to integrate the puppy with your new stock. Good breeders love their puppies and their customers and want everyone to be happy so don't be afraid to reach out to them.

If you need more help I suggest you seek professional help. And by professional help I don't mean some self-described "expert" with no real background or training. I mean a professional trainer with certifications in dog training and behavior and who specializes in LGD's and positive reinforcement training. Hands down the expert in this area is Cindy Benson, of Benson Maremmas. She is a Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner, former Maremma breeder and author of books on training LGD's. She can do zoom training sessions with you and your dog and get you back on track asap.

I would like to challenge everyone who owns one of these wonderful dogs to never, ever think of your dog as a "failure" or a "disappointment" and to challenge others to do the same. Advocate for these dogs. When you hear people blaming the dog for human failure, laziness and ignorance speak up and set them straight! Dogs come to us as clean slates. It's our responsibility to help them live up to their potential. It starts with breeders and continues with owners. And if there is any "failure" along the way it is not our dogs who have failed. It is us who have failed our dogs.

These are six of Marcella's puppies, at 4 months old, enjoying a fun game of tag with their puppy mentor, Marisa. LGD puppies need to have at least one LGD companion in order to be happy and healthy and so that they can channel that boundless energy in an appropriate manner.