Six months of hard work finally paid off the week of April 9-13, 2024, when I attended the Karen Pryor Academy Dog Trainer Professional program. I have officially completed this very rigorous professional dog training program! I learned so much throughout the six-month program and even more during the five-day workshop. 

I sometimes get contacted by people needing help with their "aggressive" Livestock Guardian Dog. First I want to say that I do not like labeling any dog as "aggressive", even if they are behaving in what may appear to be an aggressive, fearful or reactive manner. Labelling a dog as "aggressive" gives the connotation that there is something wrong with the dog itself, and that it can't be fixed and this is simply not true in most cases. Aggression in dogs is a very complex issue in dogs with a LOT of causes but there are a lot of things that can be done to help.

This is a guest post by one of my Maremma clients, Violet Qu. Violet owns Cotton Candy (CC), a puppy from my May 2022 Sevro x Polar litter. Violet also owns a Great Pyrenese named Marshmallow. Violet took the Karen Pryor Academy Dog Trainer Foundations course before bringing CC home. She has been extremely succesful in training CC and a lot of the reason why is the excellent knowledge and skills the course gave her. I asked Violet if she would write a "review" of the course for my email newsletter and she did such an excellent job that I invited her to do a guest post on the blog. Enjoy!

A Tale of Two White Dogs, by Violet Qu

The big dog on the left is Marshmallow. He came to me as an 8-week-old fluff ball, with a mission to keep my chickens and barn cats from being picked off by the big bad wolves. He was my first dog. I didn’t know what I was doing. I watched a lot of Zak George videos and took a puppy training class over zoom (it was during Covid lockdown) where I learned to manipulate his body by using a lure. For the most part, things worked fine. Marshmallow learned to sit, lie down, stand up, shake, crawl, and so on. He even learned to fetch, which is somewhat unusual for a Great Pyrenees. But sometimes, when I asked him to do something, he would suddenly have this unbearable itch that he had to scratch, and then he would yawn, and then he would give a sideways glance at the ground before performing the task in slo-mo. I coined it “emergency itch” and sometimes asked with a sarcastic tone “really? must you right now?” For months, he was mouthy and I just ignored it. Everything I read said it would stop if I just kept ignoring it.


At the age of 1, Marshmallow’s guarding instincts kicked in in full force. He ran around the ranch barking and chasing coyotes at night, and often looked exhausted in the morning. However, the mouthiness remained. And he was also chewing just about everything I didn’t want him to chew on. Even though Marshmallow was doing all he could to guard my small ranch, I still had 2 chickens disappear without a trace and a barn cat mauled by what I could only imagine a coyote (the kitty fully recovered after veterinary intervention). The coyotes did not fear him. They kicked dirt at him from the other side of the fence. It was clear to me that Marshmallow needed a partner.


A few months later, Cotton Candy joined the family as a 3-month-old from the Prancing Pony Farm, where she had already learned many life skills as a livestock guardian dog. 


In preparation of CC’s arrival, I took the Dog Trainer Foundations online course from the Karen Pryor Academy. It turned out to be more helpful than I expected. Throughout Marshmallow’s puppyhood, I had been ransacking the internet for positive reinforcement dog training tips. But tips are exactly that: a melange of “do x” instructions. The DTF course provided me with the structure I needed to internalize the positive reinforcement training concept. I am not known for following instructions. So if a training tip says step 1: wait for behavior, step 2: click, step 3: treat, I’ll more than likely mess up the timing or order or skip a step. But if I understand the building blocks to positive reinforcement training, then I can “derive” my own instructions time and time again and always get it right. Other than the science and mechanics, I also found the chapter on understanding dog language really helpful. Marshmallow’s “emergency itch”? That’s stress. His yawning? That’s stress. Mouthiness? Yup, still stress. That poor pup! The whole time he’s been gently telling me that he could use a bit more support, and I’ve been an idiot trying to wait it all out. What also dawned on me, is that a lot of what I thought / was labeled positive reinforcement, wasn’t reinforcement at all. Dangling a piece of bacon to get a dog to sit is bribery, or non-contact coercion, if you will.


Now back to CC. She has received positive reinforcement training at Kim’s since the day she was born. By the time she arrived on my ranch, she knew how to mand and target really well. And that gave me plenty of opportunities to reinforce her and quickly build a trusting relationship. Eventually I taught her to shake, only because she looks incredibly cute doing that. But by golly she was so polite and never pawed me for attention like Marshmallow did when he was a pup. She knew that manding gets her attention and treats, and giving me her paw only when I ask gets her praise and treats. I haven’t intentionally taught her to come, but she figured it out because every time she comes to me she gets pets and she might even get to lick my face. She has a pretty good “go to bed” from a single training moment. It was her birthday and I had a serrano ham bone for her. I wanted to let her have it in the kennel without being bothered by Marshmallow. I walked towards the dog bed once we entered the kennel and she hopped on it. On the spur of the moment, I clicked, then gave her the ham bone. I later put it on cue, but really, the “go to bed” action was learned in just 1 event. 


She’s been here about a year now, and CC has never had an “emergency itch”. Now isn’t that interesting! More interestingly, Marshmallow’s “emergency itch” and chewing all but disappeared after CC’s arrival, which roughly coincided with the beginning of proper use of positive reinforcement on my end. Was it me? Was it CC? Only Marshmallow knows. What I do know is that with 2 happy relaxed dogs, my life has gotten easier. And we’ll just end the story here and live happily ever after.

I will probably ruffle some feathers with this post, but something has been bothering me for a while, and I need to share my thoughts in my own rambling way. As a breeder and trainer of Maremma Sheepdogs and an advocate of the breed, I have been very vocal in how I believe Livestock Guardian Dogs should be raised and socialized as puppies. I firmly believe that LGD puppies should get a very early start with livestock and continue that way until they are grown. Puppies have critical socialization periods in the early weeks, and taking advantage of those periods by having them immersed with livestock at that age can ensure their future success as LGDs. 

I feel strongly about this issue because I have acquired puppies from breeders who raise their dogs as companion dogs in those first weeks and months. These pups were raised in houses, backyards, and patios, with no livestock exposure until they came to my farm at 3-4 months old. I have seen the effect of this lack of early livestock exposure on their training (it's a lot more work to train them) and how those dogs turned out compared to how my puppies turned out. I firmly believe that how I raise my pups is the best practice for LGDs, and what is advocated on some Facebook groups is terrible advice. I even wrote a blog post entitled "Debunking the Shepherd Way Myth of Livestock Guardian Dog Training."

I stand behind what I said in that post. However, I need to clarify what I mean by how I raise my puppies. I also have probably not understood what others mean when they refer to themselves as "shepherds."

After I wrote that blog post, I had an interesting discussion with someone in my Maremma Sheepdog Open Forum Facebook group who advocates the "Shepherd Way" of training. And I found that she and I had a lot more in common than we thought. So there is more of a communication issue than a conflict of beliefs here.

I have one adult Maremma named Titus, who is a companion dog. He lives inside my house full-time with my other three companion dogs. I bred him, and he was raised outside with the stock until he was 5 months old. He's been a house dog ever since. He is perfectly house-trained, leash-trained, and crate trained. He has gone on many walks in regular neighborhoods, to the dog park many times, to the vet, to the groomers, and on long car trips. None of this happened before he was 5 months old, but he quickly adjusted to this companion dog life.

​The "companion home" discussion is an issue for another post, which I hope to write soon. For years I turned down any requests for companion homes for my puppies. I did this primarily because of what other breeders said or what I read on Facebook. I now realize I missed out on many great homes for my pups for no good reason. And since I started saying "yes" to the occasional request for companion puppies, I have learned even more about these fantastic dogs. Choosing to keep one of my puppies as a companion dog has taught me even more. They really can thrive in pet homes. In the right home with a dedicated owner. Just like in working homes. It's primarily the commitment of the owner that matters. But again, that's a topic I plan to expand on another day.

Other than Titus, the rest of my Maremmas live outside with the livestock 24/7. They never come inside my house. But that is mainly because my house is several hundred feet from my barn and not attached by any fence. I would have to put them on a leash and walk them to my house to bring them inside. That is too much work when I am busy caring for a farm and running a business. But if my property were set up differently, I imagine my other Maremmas would come in to "visit" occasionally. Probably the goats, too. 😆

But because my dogs live outside, does that mean I'm not "shepherding" them? While I'm not too fond of the term, it's probably a relatively accurate description of my role with my dogs. I don't have an "off-farm" job. I run a business breeding dairy goats and Maremmas. I spend several hours a day outside taking care of my animals. I even sleep outside sometimes if puppies or goats are being born. Therefore I spend plenty of time bonding with my puppies and my dogs. I have no need to bring them into the house to bond with them because we bond outside. That is probably the main area where I differ from the "Shepherd Way" advocates.

I am NOT an advocate of the "hand-off" method of LGD training. Not at all. I utilize and advocate only positive training methods with my puppies. I also raise my puppies using Puppy Culture and Badass Breeder methods. I have a very carefully laid out puppy socialization program, exposing the puppies to sights, sounds, new people, and activities. This ensures that the puppies will be resilient and well-adjusted and thrive in various homes, including working or companion homes or something in between.

Another point I should make is that I sell puppies at 12 weeks or later. Most are in the 4-8 month range when they leave here. And I primarily sell puppies in pairs or to homes with another LGD, so there are no "8-week-old puppies alone in a barn" coming from my farm. Most of my pups are 50-60 lbs or more when they leave my farm. They aren't tiny babies.

​And if someone insists on owning a single LGD, I make it very clear that they will have to spend a lot of time with their puppy to compensate for the deficit. All of my dogs work in pairs or teams so I do not advocate single dogs alone with the livestock.

There is a person in the Maremma industry that I used to have a lot of respect for. I will call her "the Maremma guru" because that describes what she seems to believe she is. She is always talking about "what is true for white dogs" as if she is the only one that knows that truth. She seems to think she speaks for the Maremmas in much the same way that the Lorax speaks for the trees.

There are a lot of people in the LGD community that don't agree with her; people who have a much longer history and more experience with these dogs than she has. But she came onto the scene and declared herself the expert, refuting what people who had decades of experience said. I foolishly believed everything she said for a long time. I drank deeply from her particular brand of koolaide.

I used to tell people she knew more about the breed than anyone in the US. I promoted her tirelessly, referred many people to her for help and even had many links to her business on my own website. We had a lot in common and a lot we agreed on. There are still things we agree on.

But the more I got to know her, the more I realized that there was a lot that we disagreed on. There was a lot I felt like she was dead wrong about. (Like the Companion Maremma issue.) I no longer believe she knows as much as either of us thought she did. No one is right about everything. Being able to admit that is important. Eventually we parted ways and we are both better off for it. I know I am, anyway.

One thing I thought I had in common with her was this belief that the "Shepherd Way" was wrong. But as I talked to other people, I realized that I had more in common with advocates of the Shepherd Way than I thought and less with her. And I realized that being a shepherd is not a bad thing or a good thing. It's simply how some people describe their interactions with their dogs. It's a funny term, but I don't have a problem if people want to use it.

When the Maremma guru and I were still friends, she used to refer people to me occasionally to buy puppies. In almost every instance, she told me that she was "sending someone my way" because they were "not good enough" for her dogs, but they would be "fine" for me. I was always unsure about how I should take that. 🤔 It seemed like a backhanded compliment. But I appreciated the referrals.

Most of these people she "sent my way" never contacted me, but a few did buy dogs from me. The first time it happened, she later told me, "I can't believe you sold him a puppy." She didn't like the guy, and I think her referral was a test. Apparently I failed the test. I told her he was a very nice guy with a lovely farm, his other LGD needed a partner, and his sheep required protection. And I told her she shouldn't have referred him to me if she didn't want me to sell him a puppy. 🤷🏻‍♀️ That ended the discussion.

Another time she referred someone to me to buy a puppy as a partner for her adult LGD. She told me the client used an invisible fence, and I "would have to discuss what to do about that" with her. Again, this seemed like a test. I talked to the client. She told me she has an easement that requires her neighbors to drive through her property to get to their house. This means she can't have a gate across her road. She uses only positive training with her dogs and cats but uses an invisible fence to keep them safe. I have a couple of fence jumpers, so I understand that dilemma. A hotwire at the top of my fence was the only solution I found that worked. And an invisible fence makes sense for this client. It certainly is better than a dog getting out. Being hit by a car is as aversive as you can get. 😢 I gladly sold her the puppy, and she's been one of my best clients yet. I hear from her almost weekly, with frequent photos and updates. I may have failed the Maremma guru's test, but my puppy won, big time, in getting a wonderful home, invisible fence and all.

​Another person was referred to me by the Maremma guru around the same time as the invisible fence client. The Maremma guru had sold dogs to this new client's neighbors and repossessed them later. (She did this frequently whenever a new owner did something she disapproved of.) I knew about that situation because the Maremma guru told me about it without remorse. And why, you might ask, did the Maremma guru repossess the dogs? What terrible thing did the clients do? She told me they "made the dogs into pets." Meaning they let them in the house occasionally. Shocking, I know.

When my new client came to me, she was extremely nervous about buying dogs, partly because she had seen what the Maremma guru had done to her neighbors. She told me it was traumatic, with lots of begging, crying, and screaming when the dogs were taken away. I was later told by another party that those people had bought the dogs from the Maremma guru in the first place because their previous dog had died. Of course, that made the whole situation all the more traumatic. I can't imagine inflicting that kind of pain on people without just cause. And just cause would be something like abuse of the dogs. That was not the case here, from what I've heard.

My new client had already placed a non-refundable $1000 deposit on two pups, but when the dogs were ready to go, she was still having second thoughts. Until the day she took them home, she debated backing out on the sale. She was apprehensive that something would go wrong. And a lot of the reason why she was so worried was because of her neighbor's experience with the Maremma guru.

The client lives in Oregon, so she drove to my farm in California "for a visit and to maybe get the pups." Her visit required two days and an overnight hotel stay. On the first day, she spent five hours at my farm, interacting with the puppies and asking me a million questions. She asked me what she should do if she wanted to go on a trip. Could she take the dogs? Her husband races cars, and they go out of state for his races. She wanted to know if it would be ok if they brought the dogs along. I told her that as long as her livestock would be safe at home, there was no reason not to take the dogs if she wanted them to go. 

This client spent five hours asking me one question after another like she was testing me to see if there would be something I would say that would be a red flag to her. She was worried that she would do something wrong and that I would repossess the dogs like the Maremma guru had done to her neighbors. 

I finally told her that while the Maremma guru and I agreed on a lot and respected her very much, I was not her. I did things very differently and I was not going to repossess her dogs. I told her that once the dogs left my farm, they were no longer mine, and it was not my business or choice what she did with the dogs. I told her what I always say to my clients. "They are your dogs; you can do whatever you want with them. You don't need my permission or my blessing." 

She went to her hotel to think it over. Then she called the following day to tell me she was buying the puppies. She came and got the two she had liked the best and took them home. And she has been a wonderful puppy owner. I don't know if the dogs ever go on race car trips with her and her family. It's not my place to ask. They are no longer my dogs.

Now I would not advocate anyone doing anything to harm their dogs, and that includes using aversive training methods. But if somebody wants to take their dogs on outings or on vacation or let them sleep in the house with them every night, that is their business. Truly.

This is not to say that I don't believe that my way of training is not superior to how a lot of people manage their dogs. I do. How I train works best for me as a breeder, and it's what works best for my livestock. Having owned dogs raised my way and the opposite way, I would never again buy a puppy from anyone who doesn't raise puppies the way I do. No more patio puppies for me! But that's my personal choice, based on what works for me. 

And I will continue to raise my puppies the way I do while they are under my care because it's the ideal way to raise, train and socialize LGDs. The proof is in the dogs I have produced over the years. But once those puppies leave here and go to their new homes, they are no longer my dogs. And my puppy owners need to do what works for them and their new dogs. 

So don't worry. If you buy one of my puppies and want to do things differently from the way I do, I will not be mad at you. I'm not going to tell you you're doing it wrong. Instead, I will do my best to support you. Because it is not my dog anymore. It's your dog.

The other day I posted a cute photo of one of my 8 week old Maremma puppies (these puppies but not this photo) with my goats. It was just a chance photo I caught and it was cute, so I did a quick IG/FB post, captioning it "Where an 8 Week Old LGD Puppy Belongs". I took it a step further and shared it on a few LGD groups. As I was doing so I was already deciding that this needed to be a blog post because the topic was too in-depth for just a social media post. So I started working on the blog post but went ahead and put the "readers' digest condensed version" on social media. Here is the post:

As expected I got immediate push-back on Facebook. Most people agreed with me but a couple didn't. Here are some of the comments I received. Instead of getting into a Facebook war I decided to address the concerns here:

Comment: "The way you phrased it, every LGD puppy belongs in with the livestock, even if they just got picked up by their next owner at eight weeks."

Reply: I hear over and over that it's "unsafe" for an 8 week old puppy to be alone in a barn. And of course I agree 100% with this. Where an 8 week old puppy belongs is in the breeder's barn or pastures with its parents, litter-mates and/or other mentor dogs, and with livestock, not with an inexperienced new owner, especially if this is a single puppy, being placed without either a partner or a mentor dog. The answer to this issue is simple. Don't buy puppies from breeders who send their pups home at 8 weeks old. Don't enable this lazy and irresponsible style of dog breeding and puppy rearing.

​I plan to write an entire post about this topic but the answer is that in most cases 8 weeks is too young for LGD puppies to go to new homes. Most LGD puppies are bought by first time owners who have no clue how to either properly socialize a puppy to livestock or how to keep the puppy safe and supported while doing so. Having the puppy stay in training with the breeder a few more weeks can make a huge difference both in the success of the puppy as a LGD and in its safety when it is brought home.

These 8 week old puppies are still babies. Their place is here, on my farm, with their litter mates and learning from their parents and other mentor dogs as well as my experienced puppy trainer  livestock for at least a month or two more.

As the pups grow we utilize other dogs besides their dams as puppy mentors. We are very careful to only choose dogs that are patient and gentle with the puppies and do not encourage or allow our dogs to "correct" the puppies. Puppies who are treated harshly by adult dogs can become aggressive or fearful and neither makes a safe and trustworthy LGD.  

The Real "Backyard Breeders"

Of course if the breeder isn't properly socializing the puppies to livestock in the first place then you're better off bringing home that puppy ASAP, if you are determined to buy from that kind of breeder. (I don't recommend it.)

There's a lot of criticism for "Backyard Breeders" out there. Usually this refers to breeders who are raising unhealthy, uncared for puppies from poor quality breeding stock, but often times the term is used as a weapon by breeders to judge other breeders. In my opinion the real "backyard breeders" are the people raising Livestock Guardian Dog puppies in their backyard (or in their home) instead of with livestock.  If the breeder is raising their puppies in their home, backyard or on the patio then it's best to get that puppy home and with your stock ASAP.

​But the REAL answer is not to buy from these "Backyard Breeders" in the first place, because even by 8 weeks old you have lost at least 3-4 weeks of vital socialization time with livestock and to be perfectly honest your puppy will never be the same as a puppy who was "raised in a barn". Puppies have critical developmental periods and where your pup spends even the first 8 weeks makes a huge difference in how they turn out. Breeders who raised their LGD puppies like companion dogs either don't understand puppy development or don't care about the impact it has on the future of the dog and the stock it's intended to guard. Ignorance or apathy, it doesn't much matter. Do yourself a favor and just say no to Backyard LGD Breeders.

Comment: "...if they are going to new homes, once they get there they need to spend time in the house to bond with their shepherd, learn how to behave in a house, how to ride in a car, walk on leash, and a whole lot of other things that will make them much better rounded LGD in the long run. 

Reply: I totally agree that LGD puppies need to be exposed to experiences and skills that will make them well-rounded dogs (leash walking, exposure to lots of sights, sounds and people), and these experiences should be started by the breeder during their critical learning period, in the first 12-16 weeks. The more things the puppy is exposed to during this time the more well-rounded and resilient they will be. Again, waiting until the puppy goes to their new home is not going to be as effective as having the breeder do it, because by that point the Critical Socialization Period is ending.

Just simply housing the puppies in a stall in the barn (or on a patio or in a house or yard) with no mental stimulation is not good enough. The puppy will be mentally and emotionally stunted and may suffer from all kinds of problems as adults, including aggression and fear, both of which are unsuitable in a LGD. If you instead buy a puppy from a breeder who uses a comprehensive puppy socialization plan like Puppy Culture, in addition to an intensive livestock socialization plan, your puppy will be well-prepared for its future as a LGD and as a well-rounded, stable dog and part of your family. 

Debunking "The Shepherd Way" Myth

Spend any time on LGD groups on Facebook and you'll likely encounter the "Shepherd Way of LGD Training" method. This ridiculous theory is heavily promoted on social media by self-described "experts" with no actual training or experience with LGD's. (What professional dog training or behavior courses have they taken? What scientific documents or books have they read? What is their experience with dogs in general and LGD's in particular? Are they a breeder or trainer of LGD's? If they are a breeder how long have they bred LGD's and how many puppies have they successfully placed in working homes?)

These "experts" make the claim that shepherds spent hours a day intensively interacting with and training their LGD's and overseeing their interactions with the flocks. So Livestock Guardian Dogs are independent natured because they historically spent so much time alone with the stock but they also spent every waking minute with the "shepherd"?! That is what we call and oxymoron. 

Maybe these people are confusing herding dogs with LGD's but if there's evidence for this "Shepherd Way Theory" I haven't found it. And that idea is refuted in this National Geographic video on Maremmas, where the "shepherd" clearly states that the dogs, for the most part, take the sheep out all day long, by themselves, and then watch them all night, by themselves. The shepherds mainly see them in the morning before the animals go out to pasture and when the dogs bring the sheep back in for the night. No snuggling on the couch in front of the TV for these dogs. The point of LGD's is that they can and do work largely independently. (This video, by the way, was made by the uncle of the breeder of Pegaso, our imported Italian dog.)

Even if ancient Shepherds did spend hours a day interacting with and supervising their dogs those shepherds and dogs lived out on the open range with the sheep. They didn't live in warm, cozy houses with cable TV and internet. You can't take an old world, ancient way of managing LGD's and just plunk it down in our modern world and expect the results to be the same. Sitting on the couch watching TV with your LGD puppy for hours a day and then taking them out to do the farm chores for 30 minutes to and hour, or even a couple of hours, is not going to be enough to train that puppy how to be a Livestock Guardian Dog. You are training it to be a companion dog. Which is fine if you want a companion dog, but not if you need a LGD.

Yes there are adaptations and compromises that have to be made in order to keep a puppy safe while also ensuring the proper early socialization with stock, but if someone wants to be the "shepherd" to their LGD puppy the answer is NOT turning the puppy into a couch potato with token "livestock exposure" for an hour or so out of a 24 hour day. The answer is for a safe place to be made for the puppy in the barn or pasture so the puppy can be properly immersed with the livestock and for the "shepherd" to get outside and spend more time with the puppy, in their natural LGD setting. And for the puppy to have a working LGD partner or mentor, (or both) too.

The Best Place to Get Advice is From Real Experts

If you want to hear from an actual expert on Livestock Guardian Dogs you should read some of the books on the subject by Raymond Coppinger, professor emeritus of biology at Hampshire College, and his associates. ​In 1976, Ray and his wife Lorna founded the Livestock Guarding Dog Project at Hampshire College, where he conducted a long-term study of LGD's involving Maremma Sheepdogs as well as other breeds. For ten years the Coppingers compiled data from over 1,400 dogs in research that is still the single largest, long term study of LGDs in the world. They actually started a Maremma Sheepdog registry that predates the MSCA and many Maremmas in the United States are descended from dogs that were imported for the project.

Here's a quote from the Hampshire College website on Coppingers' work: "This long-term investigation into the behavior of a new kind of dog for farmers and ranchers in the United States has resulted in greater understanding of early developmental behavior of dogs, and how early experience (or lack of it) can affect adult behavior."

I don't know about you but I would rather get my LGD advice from real scientists and experts on the subject than from people on social media with no actual credentials, training, education or experience in the field.

Nature Versus Nurture

Comment: "Dogs with good breeding will learn from you modeling the desired behavior, because that’s how they’ve been raised for centuries"

Reply: Another non-science comment. First of all, dogs don't mimic the behavior of humans, or of other species. To a degree they mimic other dogs but even that is minimal. If it weren't then  all I would need to do would be to pair one of my excellent adult LGD's with my puppies and juvenile dogs and the training would be done for me. I wish!

And no matter how much I pet my goats and tell the dogs "nice goat" it doesn't stop the chasing. Dogs don't do what they do to please us or because they love us. They do what their instincts, developmental stages and environments dictate. In order to stop the chasing the environment needs to be matched to their developmental stage (appropriate stock and conditions) and conducive to getting the behavior I want. And they need to be rewarded for the behavior that's desired to encourage more of it.

As far as the assertion that dogs with good breeding will naturally figure things out by curling up on the couch and watching TV, that is pure hogwash, not at all "how they've been raised for centuries" and not scientific at all. Again, in the words of an actual expert:

And I for one prefer science over urban legends. What about you?

**Disclosure - I am the Admin on a Maremma Sheepdog training and discussions Facebook group called Maremma Sheepdog Open Forum so maybe it seems a bit ironic that I am warning people to not get their training advice on Facebook. However our group is science based and run by people with real training and experience with the breed. We do not allow the promoting of unscientific claims or urban legends on our group or anything that harms or endangers dogs. The mission of the group is to make the world a better and safer place for Maremmas, their owners and the livestock they guard through true education and encouragement. My group is the only place on Facebook I recommend for training advice.

**I posted this on Facebook and as usual, got some pushback from people. There were a few comments as well as a long private conversation I had with someone today about the post so I wanted to clarify something that came up. When I refer to “The Shepherd Way” it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with how real shepherds in Italy managed their dogs or still do. What I am referring to is Americans who cherry pick aspects of what I have been told Italian shepherds did/do without doing the whole thing.

For instance, I was told that Italian shepherds basically have house/barns, where the dogs can come and go freely between the part where the animals live and wher the humans live. I do not know if that's true but if it is that is nothing like what I see advocated on social media because most Americans don't have that kind of set-up. Do YOU have a barn attached to your house?

What’s more I don't think most Americans live anything like the ancient or even modern Italian shepherds did/do. Again, I don't know, but I would guess shepherds did and do spend hours a day outdoors with their dogs and stock. Most Americans spend the majority of their hours indoors, in front of some kind of screen, with very small amounts of time outdoors, even if they have a farm or homestead. And most people with farms have an off farm job. So where is this house puppy while the “shepherd” is at work?

My point is not that the real “shepherd way”, whatever that really is, doesn't work. I have great respect for these real shepherds. I just don't believe that's what is being promoted by most people who advocate this on social media. From my conversations and observations on these groups I only see people telling other people to “bring the puppy inside and be the shepherd” without clarifying or teaching them how to really do that. And that is what I have a problem with. I love real shepherds. Fake ones not so much.

And I also do not have a problem if people want to allow their LGD’s in the house. I still believe they should spend the majority of their time outside with the stock, but I doubt a visit to the house now and then will ruin a well started dog. (An improperly started one is another matter entirely.) I have clients who allow their pups in the house and I support their right to manage their pups as they see fit. My dogs might visit my house if I had a different set up. But my house is 300’ from my barn, with an unfenced area between them. I couldn’t have my dogs come in my house without putting them on a leash and walking them over, and if I did the animals would be unprotected. But if you want to bring your Maremma in your house more power to you!

​I am an admin on Maremma Sheepdog Open Forum, a Facebook group for Maremma owners and enthusiasts. This group is run by me and some other Maremma trainers so we often get questions about training issues. A question popped up recently, which I am quoting below.  This is a scenario I hear ALL the time on our group and through my own website and business page, so I decided to write a blog post about the topic. 

Here is the question:

"Seeking advice: I am working on a homestead in upstate NY, I arrived here a couple of weeks ago.  The owners of the land recently acquired two 10 month old Maremmas (they are sisters as well). They acquired them late due to the original breeder having someone back out last minute, and then struggled to home them. Needless to say, they were not bonded with goats or sheep (they apparently grew up in a pig pen).  They are now with 5 kids and 3 adult goats and chasing them CONSTANTLY. They will at times latch onto hind legs, and nip at their sides.  Thankfully skin hasn't been broken yet, but unless they are supervised all day, they will spend all their time chasing the goats.  So far, we have separated the Maremmas so they don't encourage each other.  They share a fence line however so they can see each other and be comforted by each other's presence. We try to keep the herding border collie away for the time being, as it seemed like they were mimicking her herding instincts. We are worried that they were brought into the herd way at a much too late age, and aren't going to improve. Any suggestions are experience with this is very much appreciated!"

Here are my thoughts on the issues raised:

This is a disaster waiting to happen and unfortunately it's a story that I hear all too often. There are so many things going on here that it's going to take a long post to cover it all.

First of all there are two big red flags here and one well-intentioned mistake. First, it's not at all appropriate for 10 month old pups to be unsupervised with baby goats or sheep. Some rare pups mature early but they are the exception, not the rule. Most LGD's aren't considered trustworthy with baby ruminants or poultry until age 2 or later. It's not because they are bad pups. It's because they are pups. So remove the baby goats ASAP. Ten month old puppies shouldn't be guarding baby goats, particularly when little is known about the history, breeding or early socialization of the pups.

Second, a LGD should NEVER, EVER have unsupervised time with the stock in the presence of a herding dog or any non-LGD. It's ok for your LGD to interact with your other dogs, but not with the stock unless you trust your non-LGD and you are physically supervising the interactions and are sure the other dog isn't teaching the LGD's fun new games. The LGD's most certainly can and probably will pick up bad habits from the herding dog. And this is not because your herding dog is bad. It's because he's a herding dog. LGDS's and herding dogs are both purpose bred dogs. Bred for polar opposite purposes. (The OP knows this but I'm stressing it for the sake of those that don't.)

And lastly, these pups need to (temporarily) be separated from the stock but NOT from each other. LGD's need partners and young LGD's need appropriate playmates. A goat, sheep or chicken isn't a suitable playmate. Another puppy is. Usually allowing the puppy to have a partner reduces inappropriate behavior with stock. BUT if the puppies weren't properly socialized to begin with or have picked up bad habits, or if the stock isn't suited to the pups, then peer pressure can kick in and they can sometimes get into trouble together. You may need to separate the puppies from the stock temporarily, until you get things under control. So for now I would put both pups together next to the goats and don't allow either of them unsupervised with the animals until you can assess the situation and come up with a new plan. 

Now to address the root of the problem and the question of whether the pups can improve or not. 

People sometimes acquire puppies or dogs from dubious sources or without knowing much or anything about how those pups were raised. Then they are shocked and dismayed when they find the very dogs they bought to protect the stock have become a danger to them. It's not the new owners' fault. Most people really don't have any idea what's involved in properly socializing and training a LGD. In most cases they trusted the person who sold them the dogs and that person took the money and is long gone, not willing to give advice or point them to truly helpful resources and certainly not willing to take the puppies back. This is really a shame. In my opinion the breeder's responsibility to the puppies they bred continues as long as those dogs live. Meaning they should give lifetime support, encouragement and advice to the owner and be willing to take the dogs back if the owner can no longer keep them for ANY reason. But instead they either ignore the new puppy owner or tell them it must be their fault. It's not that a breeder can fix every problem but they certainly should do their best to help. But since this breeder in question obviously can't or won't support the buyer of her pups I'll do my best to give advice, and to share my own experiences with such dogs. (Yes, unfortunately I've had to learn this lesson the hard way, too. Which is why I feel so strongly about the subject.)

Pups chasing and harassing stock is a very serious issue.  Now I am not talking about the occasional case of the "zoomies" many young dogs get. The zoomies is when the puppy is full of energy and feeling good and they suddenly decide that those goats or sheep would make a fun toy. There's a playful energy to it, not an aggressive one. It's still inappropriate but it's different, and usually pretty easy to fix by redirecting or switching out the stock. Nor am I talking about poultry. All pups need to be carefully supervised with poultry and most aren't totally poultry safe until around age 2, though some do mature earlier. But dogs of this age aggressively chasing and biting larger stock like sheep or goats is an entirely different matter. And there are  multiple issues at play here.

The first is that the livestock needs to be matched to the developmental stage of the puppies. Baby lambs or goats are not appropriate stock for most 10 month old pups. They can visit the babies under supervision if they are well mannered, but they shouldn't be left alone with them. (I rarely leave any dog under age 2 unsupervised with baby animals or poultry.) Pups this age need to be with ADULT stock and the stock needs to be of the right temperament. You do not want aggressive stock because they could cause the pups to become fearful or even aggressive if they feel threatened and bullied. Regardless of what some people will tell you an animal that continually head butts a puppy for no reason is NOT a good puppy trainer. 

On the other hand excessively flighty stock is also bad. A goat or sheep that runs every time the puppies make the slightest move actually excites the puppy and encourages it to chase. Chasing is a self rewarding behavior and once the puppy learns the habit it's very hard to break. So if you have such flighty stock you need to get them away from the puppy immediately. Even my goats, who have all been around Maremmas all their lives, do not all make suitable puppy trainers. Often times I'll notice a puppy chasing and all I need to do is remove one goat who's acting like a silly lunatic and everything is calm again. What you want is stock that looks at the puppy pulling on its ears as if to say "buzz off, kid" and completely ignores them. The puppy gets bored and the chasing stops. They still might try it again, because they are puppies, after all, but they will try it less and less. And when they realize they're not getting the response they want they will eventually quit trying. 

Another issue is that most people, when they first get their LGD's, have stock that have never been around a LGD. They think of dogs as predators (because they are!) and they are sure you've lost your mind for bringing one into their midst. So that's why putting the puppy and the stock side by side, until they are acclimated to each other, is important. If you keep them side by side until the stock calmly accepts the puppy then you'll have a lot less chasing when you do put them together. If you bought your puppy from a breeder that properly socializes their pups with stock the pups will seek out the comfort of your stock and will be more likely to behave calmly. But your stock needs to get used to your pup. So give them time.

What if your puppies didn't get the best start?

The other big contributing factor in stock chasing is improper socialization with stock when the pups were small. (Or no socialization at all.) This is a huge problem and more common than it should be. Irresponsible breeders put little to no effort into socializing the puppies and then a scenario like the OP's is the result. If you bought your pups from a breeder that failed to socialize the pups properly to stock then you're probably going to have a really hard time of it and a lot of work ahead of you. Contrary to what some people will tell you it's not all instinct with LGD's. It really does take nature AND nurture to produce a great LGD. You can't buy a puppy from a breeder who raises them in their house or on their patio and then put it out with your stock and expect instincts to just take over. It doesn't work that way. And if that breeder tells you that's an acceptable way to do it they are either lying to you or are ignorant of puppy development. LGD’s need to be socialized to stock almost from birth, in order to maximize the chances of success.

All puppies have a critical socialization period that begins once their ears and eyes open and end at roughly 12-14 weeks. (It varies by breed and dog.) This is when puppies need to be socialized INTENSIVELY with livestock, as well as with humans and to a variety of sights, sounds and experiences. A responsible breeder will have their puppies in close proximity to stock as soon as safely possibly. Definitely BEFORE 6 weeks and honestly by 3-4 weeks (with protected contact at first ) is the minimum I would accept. Once they can see and hear well they should be seeing and hearing the stock they will guard, or similar stock. If all they are seeing is the swimming pool, patio or the couch and TV then you've got a problem. And taking those patio pups for a walk past the chicken coop occasionally or even daily is NOT enough. In order to learn the "language" and "culture" of livestock, puppies need to be immersed in that "culture" 24/7 DURING the critical learning period. Those first 12 weeks are more important than any other time in the dog's entire life. You can certainly still train an older pup who missed this critical learning window, but the dog will never live up to their full potential. And it WILL be more work for you, I'm sorry to say. How do I know that? Because I made the same mistake myself. 🤦🏻‍♀️ So don't feel bad if you did it, because it's only through my own mistakes that I have learned these hard lessons. But hard lessons often help us grow and learn and do better so let my mistakes help you.

Three Kinds of Breeders

I have acquired Maremmas from eight different breeders and I have bred and raised several dogs of my own, as well as kept in contact with multiple clients who've bought my pups over the years. I am not here to criticize other breeders, as we all have our own preferences and need to do what works for us. Raising puppies is hard work. Raising puppies and keeping them healthy and safe while also socializing them properly to livestock is REALLY hard work. Not everyone wants to sleep in the barn with their pregnant dogs (what I did before I built my puppy parlor) or trek back and forth to the barn to take care of those puppies for weeks on end. Personally I think if you want to raise puppies in your house or on your patio you should breed companion dogs instead of working LGD's but that's not my choice to make. It IS my choice to not ever buy puppies from such a breeder again and I won't. I have learned my lesson, several times. (Apparently once was not enough for me.) I won't make that mistake again. I promise.

The way I see it there are three ways breeders raise LGD puppies. First there are the "puppy mill" breeders. They are truly just lazy and greedy and are churning out pups without any real effort and with the least expense in order to maximize profits. The puppies could very well be "raised in a barn" but they still may not be getting any interaction with stock or any training. These are pups such as the OP's pups who were "raised in a pig pen". Often these pups are of questionable parentage and health. Unvaccinated, fed cheap dog food. These are the Craigslist dogs. Breed them, house them for 8 weeks (or less) and sell them quick and cheap. Repeat, repeat, repeat... These are the people that give breeders a bad name and they should be stopped. They should be arrested.

Then there are the "estate guardian" breeders. They are usually well to do and live in beautiful, high dollar homes with acreage. They may have a few token sheep, horses or chickens but they aren't serious farmers or homesteaders. They just like having a "cool" or "rare" breed to lay around looking pretty and keeping coyotes from pooping on their fancy lawns. They usually have beautiful, well bred, healthy dogs, which are registered and health tested. They may have even imported dogs or acquired them from great breeding programs. Their dogs truly are beautiful but most often they aren't really LGD's. They are pool and patio guardians. These breeders put little to no effort into socializing their pups to livestock. Since that's not how they use their own dogs they don't understand the importance. They feel that keeping their puppies on their patio or in their house for the first weeks or months is perfectly acceptable. Maybe they just don't understand puppy development or maybe they do but they feel the compromise is worth it. They believe that it's reasonable for them to raise the pups on their patio or in the comfort of their own home for 2, 3 or 4 months and then the new owners can take the puppies home and do the rest. And this works great if the new owners need their pool or patio guarded. Not so much if they need their goats, sheep or chickens guarded. Remember the "critical learning periods"? This method wastes the best time of the puppies' lives. In my opinion these breeders are almost as bad as the puppy mill breeders. Sure they might be taking good care of their puppies but what about the stock those puppies are going to harass and maybe even kill, all because they didn't want to train their puppies? Breeding dogs that will be responsible for the safety and very lives of other creatures is a very serious responsibility and shouldn't be taken lightly. 

Last are the truly "good breeders". These people are real farmers, livestock breeders and homesteaders. They depend on their dogs to keep their livestock safe, so they understand what it takes to produce a great LGD. They breed the kind of dogs they themselves need; true working LGD's. Their dogs might be registered or they might not, but the difference is in the effort, time and work the breeders put into their pups to ensure they are breeding true LGD's and not pool guardians, nor puppies that look like they came out of a rescue. These pups are born in a barn or a building near the stock, like my puppy parlor, or a dairy goat milking parlor or some similar set up designed to keep the pups safe and healthy without compromising the socialization of the pups with stock. These breeders put a lot of time and work into their pups. The pups and their parents are healthy, well fed and receive proper veterinary care. And they are well loved, too. Hopefully the parents are health tested but not all are. But the puppies get the safe, gentle, intensive early socialization with livestock as well as with humans and various experiences that will ensure they are set up for success in their new homes. This is how I raise my pups and the only kind of breeder I will buy pups from, now that I've truly seen the difference.

We all Make Mistakes

​Luckily I have never made the mistake of buying puppies from a puppy mill breeder. I have acquired puppies from both the "estate guardian" breeder and the "good" breeder. The difference in these pups when I brought them home was striking. The difference is still apparent as juvenile or adult dogs. Now I didn't purposely set out to acquire "estate guardian" dogs. It just never occurred to me until AFTER I had several of these dogs in my possession that not everyone raises puppies the way I do, and the way the breeders I respect do. And I didn't realize the impact the puppies' early socialization would have on them, and me. I thought, like so many people do, that once I got these puppies home and put them out with my goats and other livestock that everything would go great. Boy was I wrong.

These dogs were all between 8 weeks and 4 months old when I brought them home. All had various issues. Some dogs simply didn't bond well to my livestock (not wanting to be near them), some of them harassed and chased my goats constantly and aggressively, some not only killed chickens but ate them. (I didn't let them with the chickens but my chickens trust white dogs and sadly they trusted the wrong dogs and sometimes wandered where they shouldn't have.) I had strangers driving by stop and knock on my door to tell me the dogs were harassing the goats. The most problematic of all the dogs actually broke a goat's leg. (She had seemed to be doing well but then she regressed.)                  

Nature or Nurture?

Now you might think this is bad genetics and for a while I worried that it was, too. But some of these dogs are completely unrelated to each other and some of them are related to dogs without temperament problems that were bred by me or by other breeders. The one difference is the early socialization of the puppies. If they were raised similarly to how I raise my pups they acclimated to my herd immediately and had few, if any, issues with inappropriate behavior with stock. If they were not raised in this manner they were hell on wheels. I have owned and trained a lot of Maremmas and I have NEVER been so challenged as I have been by these dogs. Unfortunately once I had them I couldn't do much but try to manage them. I certainly couldn't sell them to someone as LGD's. That would be disastrous and I'm not going to do that to the person or the dog. I would either end up getting the dogs back with more problems than before, or they would get dumped. And they might harm or even kill someone's stock. Definitely not an option. They are friendly with humans and I considered placing some of them in pet homes but the right home never came along. So here they stayed. And I won't lie, it's been ROUGH. But we are finely, after months and months, seeing progress. The older the dogs get the more they have settled. 

But I had to be VERY careful about livestock selection with all of them, as well as choosing partners for them. I'm very committed to having my dogs be with livestock as well as to always have a working partner. All of these dogs are dominant with other dogs so finding a dog they get along with was tricky. (I couldn't put them all together because they would fight with each other. Each one needed a very mellow dog partner, which meant that my easier dogs were often required to be put on babysitting duty with these difficult dogs, which is somewhat of a waste of their talent.) Finding stock they could be safe with was even trickier. Some absolutely couldn't be trusted with poultry, though one is better with poultry than with goats. Some chase horses, which would normally be a good choice for "biker chick" dogs. Some of them were too rough for my dairy goat does but did ok with my Mini Nubian bucks, who are big and stinky and not easily intimidated. I experimented until I found stock each dog seemed to do well with as well as a partner they got along with. Then I kept watching for signs of either problems or improvement. Over time they all made progress, though it was very slow progress. Most of them have progressed from bucks, to larger Nubian and Mini Nubian does, to Nigerian Dwarf does. (One of them is still only with the larger does but I will try her with Nigerians soon.) One of them is now guarding chickens and ducks and behaving perfectly. Another that used to chase horses is much better with them. I haven't tried them with baby goats yet but I think eventually they will be ok with them. Maybe not newborns but older kids.

How did I achieve these results? Well I didn't shock the dogs or use dangle sticks or any aversive, that's for sure. What training I did was only positive because that's the only way I train. But mostly I just matched the dogs with stock they could be safe with and dogs they got along with and waited for them to mature. Sometimes I made mistakes, such as when Cedar's leg was broken. Then it was back to the buck pasture for that dog. For most of them they were around 1.5-2 years old before I saw any real improvement. But luckily once I did things moved pretty quickly. For some it was almost like a switch went off. They just matured and got tired of their games. Mostly. They grew up.

But what's very telling is that I see the same level of maturity out of 6-10 month old pups that were bred and raised by me or breeders who use similar methods as I do out of these 18-24 month old dogs that were raised the opposite way. So yeah, these dogs can improve, but boy is it a lot of work. And I for one do not want to work that hard or wait that long for a puppy to mature and stop harassing stock. I would rather spend the first few months working hard to do everything I can to ensure those pups get a good start so I can relax later. But that's what works for me. Work smarter, not harder. Which is why I now ask to see PROOF (photos) of how a breeder socializes their pups before I'll consider buying a puppy from them. I don't care how beautiful your dog is or how good its hip scores are, if those puppies haven't gotten a proper start with livestock I am not interested.

These goats and this pup were born and raised together and are well bonded.

Will My Dog's Behavior Improve?

If you've already bought dogs that didn't get the start they should have, don't despair, there is hope. With time and patience those instincts most likely will kick in and overcome the lack of socialization and you will probably end up with a good, if not great, LGD. It's not the dog's fault they weren't set up for success by their breeder. I had to remind myself of that fact over and over when I would get frustrated with those dogs. They were behaving exactly as they were socialized to do. Even blaming the breeder was pointless. I should have done my research. I should have paid more attention. What mattered was accepting the dogs I now had and working to bring out the best I could in them. It was my job to be patient with them and teach them how I wanted them to behave. So try to be patient with your pups and eventually you'll be rewarded. 

But if you haven't bought your pups yet, do yourself a favor. Do a lot of research before you choose a breeder. Don't just ask to see pedigrees and health test results. Ask for PROOF that those puppies are getting the proper socialization with stock. (Spend a little time on my website and social media and you'll find hundreds of photo of my dogs and puppies with stock.) Because that's exactly what I didn't notice when I made my mistake. I didn't notice what was missing in those cute puppy photos. Livestock. That's what was missing. There were no photos of the puppies with stock because they weren't with it. They were on the patio, by the pool, by the jacuzzi, in the house. Anywhere but with livestock.) So if the breeder can't show you lots of photos of both their parent dogs AND the puppies with livestock do yourself a huge favor. Find one that can. Because we all have cameras in our pockets, everywhere we go. It's called a cell phone. If the breeder isn't taking photos of their pups (or adult dogs, for that matter) with livestock it's because they aren't with stock. And you can never redo the critical learning period.