Livestock Guardian Dog FAQs: How do I Stop my Maremma Puppy from Biting my Young Goats?

8/1/2024

5-week-old Prancing Pony Maremma with Messy, an excellent puppy trainer goat

I regularly get replies to my email newsletter and comments on my "Living and Working with Maremma Sheepdogs" Facebook group from people who have a Maremma Sheepdog (or another breed of LGD) that they acquired from someone else. (Not bred by me.) Sometimes, they have a question or two; other times, they struggle with their dog. The breeder or other source (rescue or shelter) they got the dog from is unwilling or unable to help them, so they don't know who to turn to.

I remember when I bought my first Maremma, Olaf. We had just bought our farm and needed a Livestock Guardian Dog to guard our goats and other animals from the local coyote population. I knew nothing about LGDs besides what I read in the few books I found on them and a few online websites and articles.

Olaf's breeder shared enough about the breed with me to convince me to buy a Maremma puppy from him instead of the Great Pyrenese I was considering. I always say it was a "happy accident" that Olaf's breeder was more persuasive than the GP breeder, and I mean it. But the breeder's advice only lasted long enough for me to trade my $600 for the fluffy 5-month-old puppy, and that was it.

As the breeder left, he said, "I know you have many questions about how to raise and train your puppy, and I will be there to help you." I don't know if that was a bald-faced lie or just a canned speech on his part, but it was not true. I did reach out to Olaf's breeder several times. He never even answered my emails. Except for when he had more puppies for sale and thought I might buy one. But when he realized he wouldn't make more money from me, he ghosted me again.

Olaf

So, I was left to figure out how to raise and train a Livestock Guardian Dog on my own. Having already read every book on the subject (which was less than five) and all the websites and blog posts, I turned to the only place left: Facebook Groups. If only I knew then what I know now—social media, in general, is a terrible place to learn about LGDs. It's a terrible place to learn about a lot of stuff, but I'll stay on topic.

Now, I am not "anti-Facebook groups." I am a member of many great groups on various topics that I've found helpful and enjoyable. I also have a Maremma Facebook group of my own (Living and Working with Maremma Sheepdogs) with almost 2000 members and a couple of other groups. I use my Maremma group to educate, encourage, and connect with other Maremma enthusiasts. I work hard to keep the group positive and trustworthy, with no bullying and no spreading of any "advice" that could be harmful to dogs or humans. The groups that I enjoy have a similarly positive and encouraging atmosphere.

So, the problem with Facebook groups isn't universal. It really depends on the groups. But unfortunately, most of the LGD or Maremma groups are just plain awful. There are some kind and encouraging people who know what they are talking about in some of the groups. But there are way more bullies and keyboard warriors. And the "advice" given by most people on these groups is questionable at best and dangerous and harmful (to dogs and humans) at worst.

Before you protest that I don't know what I'm talking about, let me assure you that I do because I was a member of most of these groups for a long time and still am a member of some. I used to post frequently on some of them, particularly the bigger Maremma and the working and training-focused LGD groups. I have been personally bullied, given what I know now was awful advice, and watched all kinds of drama unfold in these groups. I finally realized I was wasting my time and inviting stress into my life, so I stopped going on most of them. I don't miss them one bit.

In some groups, the admins just turn a blind eye to the drama and garbage their members are spewing. They're so silent you don't even know they are there. In other groups, the bullying and bad advice come from the admins and "group experts" as well as other members. In some groups, the admins and members seem to relish whipping LGDs and humans into submission. A few are genuinely vile and sick. I joined one of these groups just for a day at the request of a friend who was being bullied in the group and wanted my opinion. My opinion: these are some sick and disgusting humans.

Many people running these groups like to swagger around and brag about their "expertise," but identifying their credentials is Mission Impossible. I'm sorry, but "I've been training dogs since I was 5 years old" doesn't impress me. I want to see the dog training and behavior courses you've completed and what professional dog-related organizations you belong to. I want to know more about your LGD breeding program and how many litters of working LGDs you've bred, raised, and successfully trained to maturity. I want to see your website and read your blog.

If those people have such credentials, they don't seem very proud of them because I've never been able to track down the info, even when I point-blank asked for it. At best, you might get an "I've owned Maremmas (or other LGDs) all my life. Considering the average LGD probably lives 10-15 years, that could mean that the average 50-60-year-old owned 5 or fewer dogs "all their life." With just one litter of 10 Maremma puppies, I have double your experience.

19-year-old me, with Midnight, one of my Cocker Spaniels, in the breeding program I started when I was 14.

It's true that I came to the game later in life than some of these "experts," but there are a couple of things about me that set me apart. First, I have been a dog lover all my life and have worked with dogs professionally as a breeder and groomer since I was 14. But no, I haven't been "training dogs" since I was 5.

Second, I have always had a great thirst for knowledge. I've spent hours reading books and articles on whatever subject I'm interested in, which has long been LGDs and dog training and behavior. I have taken many dog training and behavior courses, including completing the Karen Pryor Academy Dog Trainer Professional program and the LEGS Applied Ethology course. I will continue taking courses and pursuing certifications to improve myself as a Maremma breeder and trainer. If you claim to be an "expert" at something, you should put your time and money where your mouth is. I do.

My Professional Experience

Maybe some of these Facebook admins have illustrious careers as breeders, trainers, and behaviorists. I know a couple that do. But the draw for most of these people is power and popularity without too much work. Pursue a dog training certification? Too hard! Run a business as a breeder or trainer? No thanks! It's much easier to bluster around on social media, where most members don't know an actual dog trainer from a puffed-up, vile "celebrity trainer" with no credentials whose initials are CM.

People are desperate for help with their LGDs; these groups are easy to find and free to join. As I said, I have an FB Maremma group, too, so I understand the draw of both wanting to be a part of one and wanting to host one. But there are differences between my group and most of the others. I've covered all the garbage, drama, and bad advice on most other groups. You will not get any of that in my group. If someone leaves a mean comment, I will remove it and give them a warning. If they continue to misbehave, I'll remove them. Posts or comments that are inaccurate, disrespectful, harmful to dogs, or dangerous to humans are prohibited.

I've had many people come to me from those groups saying they were more confused and stressed after they went to the groups for help than before because of all the bullying and conflicting advice, especially the advice from the admins. I know just how they feel. When I was in those groups, they actually made me afraid of my sweet Olaf, my first Maremma.

Olaf and Alice

The other difference between my group and most others, even the "Training" groups, is that many of them act like all your dog training issues can be solved if only you continue to post in their group and listen to their "free advice." They rarely offer or refer you to professional training services, theirs or anyone else's. Why? Because most people running the groups aren't qualified to be paid for training advice and they know it. People can't complain about their advice if it's free, but if you paid them for that "expertise," you might feel differently.

Maybe they genuinely offer their "free advice" out of the goodness of their hearts. Or perhaps it's just to keep their groups active and popular. Given that you'll rarely, if ever, see them recommend anyone go to a professional trainer for help, I'm more inclined to think they care more about building up their own agenda than really helping people.

I will be the first to tell you that you cannot solve all your problems with your LGD through free advice on Facebook, even in my group. You can't diagnose your dog's ailment by posting a photo on FB and asking what members think is wrong, so why should training be any different?

It's certainly OK to ask opinions about your dog's health on Facebook, but you must also ask your vet. It's OK to ask training questions on Facebook, too. I welcome them and will always answer them if they can easily and quickly be answered in a comment or if I have a blog post or website link that can answer the question. That's why I started the group, to help as many people as possible.

It's also why I started my email list - to help even more people, without being slave to the algorithm and fickle social media. So if you haven't signed up for my email list what are you waiting for?!

Join Our Email List!

But if you come to my group or email list with lots and lots of questions and problems all at once, I won't pretend they can all be solved in a group discussion or an email, because they can't. I can't have a long, ongoing, private conversation with you for free, either. Breeding and training Maremmas is a business for me, not a hobby. I have invested much time and money into my education, breeding program, and business. I have dogs and goats to feed and bills to pay. I must bring in money to meet my obligations, primarily by selling those dogs and goats. Time spent giving away free advice is time away from running my business and less dog food and hay.

I can help other LGD owners and supplement my income by offering paid LGD phone consultation services. So, for those with many questions or need complex help, I suggest you take advantage of my services. You can book a call to discuss your issues with your dog. I'll give you suggestions and follow up with resources by email. For most people, one phone call can make a huge difference. But if you need ongoing help, I'm here.

LGD Training Services

In the future, I may consider starting a paid membership with regular content, a forum, and Zoom calls between members where everyone can discuss their questions, but I need to be sure I have the time to commit to that and a need for it before I start a project that big!

I realize that some people really can't afford paid training services. That's why I advise people to factor that into the purchase price when buying their LGD. I include lifetime free training services to anyone who buys a Maremma from me, so even though my dogs are more expensive than a lot of Maremmas, when you add the degree of early training and socialization my pups get, along with the additional training services, my dogs are actually a bargain.

Why Buy a Prancing Pony Maremma?

But I know there will always be people who will go for the "affordable" puppy or end up with a dog they need help with and nowhere to turn. They have a question or two and need a little bit of advice. I'm happy to help with these questions, so I usually answer them in the comments on my Facebook group or in a quick email reply, especially if the question comes from someone on my email list.

The True Cost of "Affordable" LGDs

Livestock Guardian Dog FAQs From My Readers

For a long time, I've wanted to use these questions to help more people than just the ones asking the questions. If I tell one person how to get their dog to stop chasing chickens, why not tell hundreds or even thousands simultaneously and help more people and their dogs? I often save my emails and comments in a file with plans to use them later as a blog or social media post. But, like many things, it often gets put on the back burner, forgotten, and never used.

So when I got an email from someone on my email list yesterday with a question about her Maremma puppy and some accompanying videos, I decided I needed to commit. Just go through with my plan of helping many with the questions of a few. So, I am starting a new "user-generated content" series for my blog and email list (and maybe my social media).

When people email me with questions about training their LGDs, I will write a "mini blog post" or FAQ to answer it. I'll try not to be a perfectionist. Just get the question answered as quickly and clearly as possible and get it posted. Then, I'll share it with my email list so all my subscribers can benefit from the answer. Not everyone will need that particular piece of advice, but chances are a lot of people will. As I've always said, my best ideas for what to write about come from my clients, subscribers, and followers. So it's a win for me, too.

So this is the start of my new "FAQ" series. If you have a question or need help with something, you can reply to my emails if you're on my email list, comment on my blog, or comment on any of my social media accounts or groups. If you have videos you want to share of your dog that illustrate your question or concern and don't mind me sharing those, then feel free to share those, too. Together, we can make a difference for many more LGDs and their owners.

FAQ from Tracey: How Do I Get My 9-week-old Maremma Puppy to Stop Biting Young Goats

An 8-week-old Prancing Pony Maremma puppy

Here is the first question in the series, sent to me by Tracey:

"I have a 9-week-old Mareema pup, who is living with my goats full time; I've noticed the last few days she's jumping and nipping at 3 of my younger goats; how do I stop this kind of behavior? I'm not sure how to positively reinforce this. I tried moving her away and distracting her and it lasts for about 10 minutes but when she sees the goat again, she's nipping at it again."

And here's my answer to Tracey:

Hi Tracey, Thanks for contacting me for help with your pup and the videos. They are very helpful. You can positively reinforce behavior you want to see more of, but you can't really "positively reinforce" an unwanted behavior out of your dog. So you can positively reinforce the calm behavior you see with the goats by using clicker training, but for the unwanted behavior, your goal is to prevent it, not reinforce it.

Some people would tell you to use negative reinforcement to stop the undesired behavior, even if it's just a verbal reprimand. I don't recommend any aversive training methods, especially with a 9-week-old puppy. And even a verbal "correction" isn't ideal. I have a t-shirt that says, "No is not a behavior." That's to remind myself, as much as anyone else, that we want to teach dogs what we want them to do. And "corrections," even verbal ones, don't do that.

So, how can you get your puppy to stop chasing the goats without using corrections or reprimands? Simple. Through management. Or through the "ABC Training Method," known as Antecedent Arrangement. The Antecedent (A) is what triggers the Behavior (B) and gets the Consequence (C).

For more on this method read this blog post:

The ABC Training Method

In your puppy's case, the kids are the antecedents that trigger chasing behavior. The consequence you will get if you allow this to continue is a puppy that learns a fun game and bad habits of stock chasing. If that continues, a worse consequence could be injured goats. Your puppy seems to do well with the adult goats but wants to chase the kids. Solution - remove the kids.

I don't know how old your kids are, but personally, I don't allow puppies of a certain age to be with young goats, anyway. Tiny puppies usually do fine with kids the size of yours, but once they learn they can chase and bite the goats, it's time to move the kids or the puppies. She's probably at the age where the kids are still safe because they can evade her, but since she's showing interest in biting them, I would suggest you split them up ASAP.

I know many people think they can get an LGD puppy, bring it home, and put it in with their entire herd of goats or sheep. That is the absolute worst thing you can do and a sure way to lead to trouble. When you bring home an LGD puppy, especially one that is young (9 weeks is too young for a responsible breeder to sell their pups), it's not their job to protect your livestock. It's their job to learn to be an LGD. It's your job to protect your stock and train your puppy so the puppy can take over the protection one day.

I am pretty sure you understand that your puppy is just in training and not "guarding" yet, but I know a lot of people expect pups of her age to be guarding, so I'm putting that in here for their benefit!

But since you have your puppy with all your goats, I will assume you didn't realize that wasn't the best plan. I have around 75 goats as well as 100+ kids a year. My puppies are never with young kids and rarely with yearlings. I may allow pups under 8 weeks old with 6 months or older kids, but usually, by the time the pups are around your pup's age, that changes. When the pups turn into little velociraptors, I remove any small or young goats.

I am also cautious, even with the adult goats I select to be with my puppies. I have a lot of different temperaments in my herd, from placid and calm goats to flighty and silly ones. I never allow a flighty goat to be with a puppy because it will encourage them to chase. (Chasing is a self-reinforcing behavior and addicting due to the dopamine rush they get.) I never allow any goats who like to bully and head-butt puppies (Nigerians, I'm looking at you!) because this can cause puppies to strike back in defense and turn into aggressive dogs.

Instead, I select my calm, quiet, patient goats to be with my puppies and young, zoomie dogs. I have a few goats, in particular, who really love dogs and are excellent puppy trainers. Those goats have a permanent home in my puppy parlor pasture and a permanent home on my farm. Those goats are worth their weight in gold.

I advise you to separate the kids from the puppy immediately. If the kids are still nursing and you need to keep them with their moms, then maybe you have just a couple of goats without kids you can use as puppy trainers, leaving the rest together. I realize you might not have things set up to split your herd, but I would find a way to make it work if you want to prevent your puppy from continuing the biting.

If you can't split the herd, you're better off keeping your puppy adjacent to the goats but not in with them until the biting phase is over. You can bring the puppy in for training sessions and reinforce the calm behavior while preventing the biting. You can use a long line if you need to so the puppy can't reach the kids. Or maybe you can initially put the kids somewhere else for the training sessions.

If you continue to reinforce the calm behavior through clicker training, then your puppy will start to offer it more, and the biting will just go extinct in time.

If you don't know much about clicker training, how it works, or why it's so powerful, I suggest you read this post:

The ONE Thing You Must do to Succeed With LGDs

One more thing I would like to point out. Your puppy is also chasing the kids because she is bored. She's targeting the kids because they are closer to her size and more interesting than the adult goats. Livestock Guardian Dogs do better in pairs for many reasons, including needing an appropriate playmate. A goat, sheep, chicken, etc, is not a suitable playmate. Only another puppy is. Even an older LGD is no substitute for another puppy.

Puppies under about 6 months old are VERY energetic and playful. They bite and chase each other precisely in the way she's trying to play with the goats. Putting her in a pasture with nothing but goats and no other puppies, expecting her to not act like a typical puppy, and not giving her an outlet for her play is unrealistic and unfair.

Normal Maremma puppy play behavior - this is why single puppies often chase stock

I know there are a lot of people out there promoting the "Littermate Syndrome" myth and advocating for getting one LGD and raising it to adulthood before adding another. They are wrong. First of all, Littermate Syndrome isn't real. It's pure garbage. Second, the LMS myth has no basis in science or dog behavior. Always go for science above folklore or "old farmer's wive's" tales.

Third, most of the "info" about LMS pertains to companion dogs, who live in a house with their humans and get plenty of playtime and attention. So, though not ideal, those dogs may do fine without another puppy.

Puppies need appropriate playmates (other puppies) to develop normally and be happy.

But unless you plan to spend all your days and nights in the goat pasture, you can't make up for your puppy's lack of a canine companion. Many people like to think they can, but you spend less time playing with your puppy than you think. And even if you play with her, it's not the same as having another puppy. And as we've already determined, the goats aren't suitable playmates.

She's going to continue to try treating the goats like dogs and get into trouble, or she's going to be a "good" puppy and stop trying to play with them. But nothing is "good" about seeing a young puppy lying around placidly, not playing like a puppy. That's not a "good" puppy. It's a shut-down, bored, sad puppy. And if that's not what you want, I suggest you get another puppy asap. Here's more info on that topic:

How Many LGDs do I Need?

I hope this helped. Thanks for the inspiration!

Looking for the best Livestock Guardian Dog in North America, unparaleled lifetime breeder support and professional training services all-in-one? Look no further than a Prancing Pony Farm Maremma Sheepdog!

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